Trade Deadline Thread

[tomsred]

One thing to remember about scrapping everyone possible, and investing in prospects - it doesn't always work.  It is guaranteed to push out any further chance of success in the short run.  And regarding the prospects we would get in return, is there some bumper crop of prospects out there right now that we should be chasing, and exactly who are they?  Are these risky prospects or sure things?

Yes, teams have taken this route with success in the past, but it does not always succeed and it eats up vast amounts of time in years.  Many of the teams who have done it had no other alternative because they are not big market teams, they simply didn't have the cash to do otherwise.  Kansas City is a good example in recent times, and in the late 90's and early 2000's Oakland was an example.  If you have cash, you can speed the process along by taking on players with proven worth, and sometimes with established contracts.  Prospects of any kind have no proven worth yet, and may never get it.  I think Boston, San Francisco, and St. Louis are good models for us, not Kansas City, Houston, or Oakland. 

I think Eppler is trying to say that the organization is trying for a balance.  We want a good pipeline via the draft, we want to sign young prospect players who are close to a sure thing.  We might have to ad a vet or two via free agency.  We are not Kansas City or Oakland, the demographics and ownership spending levels are completely different.  A total scrapping is unnecessary.  Retooling is completely different from rebuilding.

As wealth continues to build among teams in the majors, I think you will see less use of the complete rebuilding formula.  Teams won't have to wait and risk many years of frustration wondering if the developing players they have will ever reach their potential.  They will be able to supplement their team with established players, and even star players if they have the money to do so without risking financial ruin.

 

[fan_since79]

16 hours ago, nate said:

With any luck, Santiago, Escobar, Street and Smith won't be Angels on August 1st and the farm will have some actual prospects in it.

I don't like losing Escobar. A .300 hitter with a high OBP in the leadoff spot, he's been an immense help to this offense.

 

[nate]

1 minute ago, fan_since79 said:

I don't like losing Escobar. A .300 hitter with a high OBP in the leadoff spot, he's been an immense help to this offense.

 

I agree but he is only signed through next year and he is a dipshit.

[fan_since79]

Teach him how to throw a baseball and he's good to go.

Oh...and how to run the bases too.

 

[totdprods]

I'm not seeing much of a market for Escobar at the moment. 

[Ohtaniland]

4 hours ago, tomsred said:

One thing to remember about scrapping everyone possible, and investing in prospects - it doesn't always work.  It is guaranteed to push out any further chance of success in the short run.  And regarding the prospects we would get in return, is there some bumper crop of prospects out there right now that we should be chasing, and exactly who are they?  Are these risky prospects or sure things?

Yes, teams have taken this route with success in the past, but it does not always succeed and it eats up vast amounts of time in years.  Many of the teams who have done it had no other alternative because they are not big market teams, they simply didn't have the cash to do otherwise.  Kansas City is a good example in recent times, and in the late 90's and early 2000's Oakland was an example.  If you have cash, you can speed the process along by taking on players with proven worth, and sometimes with established contracts.  Prospects of any kind have no proven worth yet, and may never get it.  I think Boston, San Francisco, and St. Louis are good models for us, not Kansas City, Houston, or Oakland. 

I think Eppler is trying to say that the organization is trying for a balance.  We want a good pipeline via the draft, we want to sign young prospect players who are close to a sure thing.  We might have to ad a vet or two via free agency.  We are not Kansas City or Oakland, the demographics and ownership spending levels are completely different.  A total scrapping is unnecessary.  Retooling is completely different from rebuilding.

As wealth continues to build among teams in the majors, I think you will see less use of the complete rebuilding formula.  Teams won't have to wait and risk many years of frustration wondering if the developing players they have will ever reach their potential.  They will be able to supplement their team with established players, and even star players if they have the money to do so without risking financial ruin.

 

What's wrong with rebuilding? Are we afraid to suck for 3-5 years? Are we running out of time? What's the rush? The same month that Arte hired Jerry Dipoto the Cubs hired Theo Epstein. You can see that he has completely rebuilt the team. He cleaned house. They were 61-101 in 2011 and that team is long gone. If we want to build a "sustainable winner" then we need to start the construction phase. Retooling is just adding new poster in front of the stadium next to the old tools. 

[mtangelsfan]

3-5 years would be the very best scenario.  Astros and Royals were bad for decades.

[Angel Oracle]

9 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

3-5 years would be the very best scenario.  Astros and Royals were bad for decades.

True, but it could be done in 3-5 years, if Arte isn't afraid to start spending money again, but smartly on strategic FA's a year from this coming December.  That would allow Latin America scouting to do its' job, and for the farm to still be rebuilt.

[mtangelsfan]

Give me examples of it being done that soon.  

[kevinb]

15 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Give me examples of it being done that soon.  

Cubs

[Lou]

50 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

What's wrong with rebuilding? Are we afraid to suck for 3-5 years? Are we running out of time? What's the rush? The same month that Arte hired Jerry Dipoto the Cubs hired Theo Epstein. You can see that he has completely rebuilt the team. He cleaned house. They were 61-101 in 2011 and that team is long gone. If we want to build a "sustainable winner" then we need to start the construction phase. Retooling is just adding new poster in front of the stadium next to the old tools. 

lol at the Cubs and 3-5 years being used as an example

 

[TroutField]

18 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Give me examples of it being done that soon.  

The Red Sox went from firing their manager in 2011 in favor of Bobby Valentine for 2012 to winning a World Series in 13. Baseball can flip the script very quickly. 

[Docwaukee]

You aren't going to tear this team down to the studs and be ready to go again in 3-5 years.  In 18 months, you are going to get Richards, Heaney and Trop back.  With Shoe and Skaggs in the mix still as well.  Right or wrong, you have to see where you can go with that.  So you aren't going to sell off guys who are part of the major league core for that time frame.  That includes Trout, Calhoun, Shoe, Simmons and Cron.  

What should be done is to stockpile as many assets as possible for that window.  Which means that asset who don't fit into that window should be exchanged for ones that potentially will.  A lot can happen in 18-30 months in terms of player development but what is most likely is getting farm help from a few players in that time as opposed to getting 10+ players to graduate and begin contributing at the major league level in the next 3-4 yrs.   

I'd be willing to concede 2017 and maybe even 2018 to see what happens when our pitching gets healthy and we've had a couple drafts adding some top 10 protected picks, some additional depth, and some foreign players.  Plus, in 18 months, there will be a better FA pool and we will have our foreign restrictions removed.  

If there isn't any promise or hope when mid 2018 or pre 2019 rolls around, then I would consider breaking things down a little further, but again, maybe you are in a position to exchange some expiring assets for those with more control.  

Move the obvious choices first (I include Santiago, Street and Escobar in that pool) and see where you are.  

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

lol at the Cubs and 3-5 years being used as an example

 

When you have a plan in place like Theo did when he took over it was new. Similar to the new GM of the Houston Astros was hired in 2011 with a new plan to be good now. Looks like they are doing well and made the playoffs last year so I guess that would be two. 

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Dochalo said:

You aren't going to tear this team down to the studs and be ready to go again in 3-5 years.  In 18 months, you are going to get Richards, Heaney and Trop back.  With Shoe and Skaggs in the mix still as well.  Right or wrong, you have to see where you can go with that.  So you aren't going to sell off guys who are part of the major league core for that time frame.  That includes Trout, Calhoun, Shoe, Simmons and Cron.  

What should be done is to stockpile as many assets as possible for that window.  Which means that asset who don't fit into that window should be exchanged for ones that potentially will.  A lot can happen in 18-30 months in terms of player development but what is most likely is getting farm help from a few players in that time as opposed to getting 10+ players to graduate and begin contributing at the major league level in the next 3-4 yrs.   

I'd be willing to concede 2017 and maybe even 2018 to see what happens when our pitching gets healthy and we've had a couple drafts adding some top 10 protected picks, some additional depth, and some foreign players.  Plus, in 18 months, there will be a better FA pool and we will have our foreign restrictions removed.  

If there isn't any promise or hope when mid 2018 or pre 2019 rolls around, then I would consider breaking things down a little further, but again, maybe you are in a position to exchange some expiring assets for those with more control.  

Move the obvious choices first (I include Santiago, Street and Escobar in that pool) and see where you are.  

Guess you'll never know

[Troll Daddy]

Can you even imagine this place while the team is rebuilding in five years.

Here's the thing ... if your going for a full rebuild then it starts with Trout & Pujols. 

 

[mtangelsfan]

3 minutes ago, TroutField said:

The Red Sox went from firing their manager in 2011 in favor of Bobby Valentine for 2012 to winning a World Series in 13. Baseball can flip the script very quickly. 

and how was their farm system?  and they never tore down the team.

[mtangelsfan]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

When you have a plan in place like Theo did when he took over it was new. Similar to the new GM of the Houston Astros was hired in 2011 with a new plan to be good now. Looks like they are doing well and made the playoffs last year so I guess that would be two. 

Please, the Cubs were crappy for years.  Not only that by the time Theo took over they already had a very good farm system.  They didn't have to start from scratch.

[kevinb]

Just now, Troll Daddy said:

Can you even imagine this place while the team is rebuilding in five years.

Here's the thing ... if your going for a full rebuild then it starts with Trout & Pujols. 

 

If there is a plan in place then I think people would understand. Right now it doesn't seem like there is any plan in place. They had money this offseason to sign a left fielder and decided to go the cheap route. Trade off a pitching asset for a SS and then pretty much went dumpster diving. I am not sure Eppler has full reigns to do what he wants or that he knows what he wants to do. I guess we will see what happens in the next couple years but in 2 more years if the Angels don't make the playoffs and Eppler will be gone and it will be someone other than him in control. 

[Troll Daddy]

Fortunately, we don't have to go that direction with the young core group of players already in place. 

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, mtangelsfan said:

Please, the Cubs were crappy for years.  Not only that by the time Theo took over they already had a very good farm system.  They didn't have to start from scratch.

He traded off every conceivable asset on the Major League Roster and built back up. Bullshit they were a good farm system most of his good farm system assets were not on the farm when he took over. So believe what you want. 

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

When you have a plan in place like Theo did when he took over it was new. Similar to the new GM of the Houston Astros was hired in 2011 with a new plan to be good now. Looks like they are doing well and made the playoffs last year so I guess that would be two. 

Those teams didn't have Mike Trout.  Even though you may not like the idea of creating a window for one player, it has to be acknowledged and accouted for.  Those teams were horrendous for an exteded period prior to their resurgence.  The comparison is not apples to apples.  

[kevinb]

5 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Fortunately, we don't have to go that direction with the young core group of players already in place. 

I guess we will see I don't know what young core your talking about. Trout? Calhoun isn't actually young, Richards is hurt, Heaney hurt, Shoemaker isn't young, Trop Hurt, Simmons is young tho so we got that going. 

 

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Those teams didn't have Mike Trout.  Even though you may not like the idea of creating a window for one player, it has to be acknowledged and accouted for.  Those teams were horrendous for an exteded period prior to their resurgence.  The comparison is not apples to apples.  

They may have been bad before but the guys who are on the major league roster for both respective teams were signed from 2011 and on. Trout is great but it doesn't seem like the Angels are going all in on him either. If they were one of those LF'ers would have been signed to a  contract instead of trying to make it work with floppy and flapjack in left field.

[Docwaukee]

Any plan that includes losing for an extended period and then trading Trout isn't something I am willing to endure as a fan. 

[kevinb]

Just now, Dochalo said:

Any plan that includes losing for an extended period and then trading Trout isn't something I am willing to endure as a fan. 

Who the hell said trade Trout in anything I just wrote.