Ohtani or Judge as MVP?

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Right. Judge has been a monster this year. Vlad was a monster last year. Ohtani won unanimously while not leading in any category. 

Well, he lead MLB in total WAR, which Judge is doing this year.  

[cals]

If Judge wins, so be it. He deserves it.  He’s having an amazing year.  

I personally think there is some validity to the idea that the team should also have some success due to the player.  

The voters have looked past that the past decade since the Angels have had some unbelievable individual performances.  But at some point the fact that the Angels are an embarrassment of a team was going to come into play.  

Especially when the other option was a Yankee on a playoff bound team.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Judge wins it this year, and to be fair, he is having the best year.

That said..

If he was doing what he's doing this year from SS or C, it would be the greatest season of all time basically. 

The fact Ohtani does what he does as a P is already being underrated by too many people... and it's crazy.

As of a like 2 weeks ago, Ohtani had something like 23 starts, and had given up 2 runs or less in 18 of them, or something like that. And he does that by pitching righty... which is his bottom hand for swinging the bat.

Again... if Judge was a C or SS the hype would be even crazier.... it should be for Ohtani too

[Blarg]

7 hours ago, Stradling said:

What did Shohei lead in last year?

Unicorn.

[Angel Oracle]

Judge wins, so be it.

However:

4th in HRs, tied for 5th in rbis, 3rd in OPS, 11 SBs

Tied for 4th in ERA, 7th in WHIP, 1st in Ks/9 innings, 3rd in Ks, 5th in Ks/BBs ratio, tied for 5th in wins

Try doing that, Judge!

[Stradling]

8 hours ago, cals said:

If Judge wins, so be it. He deserves it.  He’s having an amazing year.  

I personally think there is some validity to the idea that the team should also have some success due to the player.  

The voters have looked past that the past decade since the Angels have had some unbelievable individual performances.  But at some point the fact that the Angels are an embarrassment of a team was going to come into play.  

Especially when the other option was a Yankee on a playoff bound team.

I actually agree with you but for 35 years the voters haven’t voted that way. If all things are equal give it to the guy on the winning team. 

[Stradling]

If the two swapped teams the Yankees would be better and the Angels would be worse. 

[Dtwncbad]

8 hours ago, cals said:

If Judge wins, so be it. He deserves it.  He’s having an amazing year.  

I personally think there is some validity to the idea that the team should also have some success due to the player.  

The voters have looked past that the past decade since the Angels have had some unbelievable individual performances.  But at some point the fact that the Angels are an embarrassment of a team was going to come into play.  

Especially when the other option was a Yankee on a playoff bound team.

Teams not going to the playoffs do have some success due to the player (like Trout on the Angels).

These teams would lose substantially more games without the MVP caliber player.

I personally think the most objective way to try to determine who the MVP is to just ask yourself what player you would pick first for your roster if you could go back to opening day and you were trying to build the best team.

It is an individual award and the most coveted individual player is (to me anyway) the MVP.

[AngelStew43]

I think Ohtani should be MVP.  What he does on the mound, 13 wins, more than 200 K's by seasons end, more than 34 HR, and he should make 100 RBI with a little luck.  

Judge is having a monster year, but he doesn't pitch as well. 

[Stradling]

We could just be entering a time like Hockey had where Gretzky won every year. It’s Ohtani’s to lose.  That being said I’d probably give it to Judge this year if the season ended today. 

[eligrba]

I don't understand how a player can be a contender for both MVP and Cy Young awards and not win either.  How does that even work?  It doesn't matter what the player's team does, it is an individual award based on how that individual competes against everyone else in the league?

[Jay]

8 minutes ago, eligrba said:

I don't understand how a player can be a contender for both MVP and Cy Young awards and not win either.  How does that even work?  It doesn't matter what the player's team does, it is an individual award based on how that individual competes against everyone else in the league?

Typically MVP is for position players and Cy Young is for pitchers.

 

[eligrba]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Typically MVP is for position players and Cy Young is for pitchers.

 

However, there are examples of pitchers winning the MVP, which leads me to the issue about how MLB recognizes a player who excels in both, but does not dominate enough to be the clear winner of either award?

Judge is having a great year, but it is Ohtani's stats that will be permanently referenced for years to come.  I  think it will be embarrassing for MLB when Ohtani's season stats are continually referenced with the caveat that he didn't win either the MVP or Cy Young.

Ohtani has created a problem for MLB which would be immediately remedied if he played for a higher profile team like the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox.

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

Typically MVP is for position players and Cy Young is for pitchers.

 

I don't know if that's every been stated as fact but for many fans that's how they view it. 

Starting Pitchers have won the MVP 22 times, including 12 times since the Cy Young Award was created in 1956. Additionally 4 RPs have won the MVP, 3 of them post Cy Young creation.

Its also worth mentioning that the Cy Young was initially given to one pitcher.  It wasn't until 1966 that both leagues awarded a Cy Young.

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, eligrba said:Ohtani has created a problem for MLB which would be immediately remedied if he played for a higher profile team like the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox.

I don’t think it has to do with the profile of the team. We’ve seen the Angels win 4 MVP awards in the last 10-12 years and we know how the team has performed during that time. Now do I think if Judge played for KC would Ohtani have a better chance?  Yea I would think so. 

[Blarg]

11 minutes ago, eligrba said:

However, there are examples of pitchers winning the MVP, which leads me to the issue about how MLB recognizes a player who excels in both, but does not dominate enough to be the clear winner of either award?

Judge is having a great year, but it is Ohtani's stats that will be permanently referenced for years to come.  I  think it will be embarrassing for MLB when Ohtani's season stats are continually referenced with the caveat that he didn't win either the MVP or Cy Young.

Ohtani has created a problem for MLB which would be immediately remedied if he played for a higher profile team like the Dodgers, Yankees or Red Sox.

Make Ohtani only a DH and he doesn't win MVP. Make Ohtani a pitcher only and he doesn't win the Cy Young. He is extremely proficient in both but does not master either individually.

When Justin Verlander won the MVP he had an 8.6 War as a pitcher only. When Kershaw won it as a pitcher he had an 8.2 War, the next closest was 6.5. Ohtani as a pitcher only last year was a 4.1, not a Cy Young by pitching performance. His hitting was 4.9 WAR, not enough to win the MVP on his hitting alone. That would have ranked him about 10th in MVP voting if isolated. 

His pitching stats are great but you have to consider he isn't close to the top 20 in games started. He will cap out at 27 games this season. An all time high for him but most pitchers in the top of the rotation log 32 or more games. If he wants a Cy Young he has to move to a 5 man rotation to compete on a level playing field with the other pitchers. War is a cumulative Stat but it can go up or down depending on game performance. Currently Ohtani receives the benifit of longer rest periods and fewer games that could count against him. 

The argument that Judge doesn't pitch and Ohtani does isn't a sound argument. Just like Ohtani doesn't risk his body in the outfield day in and day out because he is a DH. Each player has their game and when you balance out their skills that add to value, this year Aaron Judge is better than a two way player in Ohtani. 

[IheartLA]

The pitching WAR seems off this year. I don’t remember it ever being lopsided this much between position players and pitchers. No pitcher has over a 5.7 that can’t be right.

Alcantara has 200+in and he’s been less valuable than Edman, McNeil, and Murphy? Come on that’s ridiculous. Even if you told everyone before the season Edman would give you more WAR than Alcantara whose season would you rather have on your ballclub 99% are gonna say Alcantara. 

[Taylor]

I look forward to the award being given out in November and everyone here acting like they knew all along what was going to happen.

[beatlesrule]

17 minutes ago, IheartLA said:

The pitching WAR seems off this year. I don’t remember it ever being lopsided this much between position players and pitchers. No pitcher has over a 5.7 that can’t be right.

Alcantara has 200+in and he’s been less valuable than Edman, McNeil, and Murphy? Come on that’s ridiculous. Even if you told everyone before the season Edman would give you more WAR than Alcantara whose season would you rather have on your ballclub 99% are gonna say Alcantara. 

Alcantra has a 7.0 bWAR.

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I look forward to the award being given out in November and everyone here acting like they knew all along what was going to happen.

I have to admit.  I don't care who wins, but I'd love to see Ohtani win it just to annoy the living shit out of Yankee fans who are still bent that he won the ROY over their boy Andujar.   The flipside.  I'd love for Judge to win it, then sign with the Giants just to hear the same Yankee fans lose their shit.

Basically, I'm just in it for the LOLs at this point.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, beatlesrule said:

Alcantra has a 7.0 bWAR.

He's quoting fWAR.  bWAR is kind of a joke.  

FTR, fWAR makes the argument that Judge has been dominant better than does bWAR -- last I looked he was at 9.8

[AngelsLakersFan]

5 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Judge wins it this year, and to be fair, he is having the best year.

That said..

If he was doing what he's doing this year from SS or C, it would be the greatest season of all time basically. 

The fact Ohtani does what he does as a P is already being underrated by too many people... and it's crazy.

As of a like 2 weeks ago, Ohtani had something like 23 starts, and had given up 2 runs or less in 18 of them, or something like that. And he does that by pitching righty... which is his bottom hand for swinging the bat.

Again... if Judge was a C or SS the hype would be even crazier.... it should be for Ohtani too

If there was no DH and Ohtani was playing left field instead he would be blowing away Judge in WAR.

[Taylor]

31 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I have to admit.  I don't care who wins, but I'd love to see Ohtani win it just to annoy the living shit out of Yankee fans who are still bent that he won the ROY over their boy Andujar.   The flipside.  I'd love for Judge to win it, then sign with the Giants just to hear the same Yankee fans lose their shit.

Basically, I'm just in it for the LOLs at this point.

The LOLs are all we have. We lost everything else around late May.

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, Taylor said:

The LOLs are all we have. We lost everything else around late May.

When life gives you lemons, make LOLsmonade.

Please forgive me..

@ettin I love you, maaaaan.

[Taylor]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

When life gives you lemons, make LOLsmonade.

Please forgive me..

@ettin I love you, maaaaan.

LMAOnade