Ohtani or Judge as MVP?

[tdawg87]

13 hours ago, Deek said:

For me it's not even a close discussion...

1.04 WHIP, 2.4 ERA, .900 OPS...

 

Judge is having a great season for a power hitter (albeit on a little league field).  He CAN NOT impact the game in a more meaningful way than Shohei...

 

There's no argument beyond: "well, we want to mix it up this year and give it to someone else".... or "Shohei has an "unfair" advantage as a pitcher"... or "but the HR record is such a hallowed record we have to acknowledge the feat somehow"...

 

Judge is not even an elite fielder (which is kind of amazing really when you consider he only has to cover ground about the size of your living room)...

 

Who is the league's "Most Valuable Player"... uh - Shohei...

Judge hasn't been an elite fielder THIS year, but overall he has. His arm is ridiculous.

And the "little league" thing has already been proven wrong. He has a 1.148 OPS away from Yankees Stadium with 30 homeruns. His splits couldn't possibly be more even. It's kind of funny.

I want Ohtani to win, too. But let's not do the thing everyone else does by downplaying the accomplishments of the guy he's competing with. 

[Lou]

Judge also plays a shitload of games in Boston and Baltimore.

[arch stanton]

7 minutes ago, Lou said:

Judge also plays a shitload of games in Boston and Baltimore.

He's hit 3 HR in Boston and 5 in each of Baltimore and Tampa but here's why he's going to win

.475/.573/1.017/1.590

That's in 76 PA in September. And I don't think that includes the 2 doubles and a walk last night vs Pit

Edited September 22, 2022 by arch stanton

[Jason]

26 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Judge hasn't been an elite fielder THIS year, but overall he has. His arm is ridiculous.

And the "little league" thing has already been proven wrong. He has a 1.148 OPS away from Yankees Stadium with 30 homeruns. His splits couldn't possibly be more even. It's kind of funny.

I want Ohtani to win, too. But let's not do the thing everyone else does by downplaying the accomplishments of the guy he's competing with. 

Judge is a beast and is the best hitter in the game. He’ll likely win the MVP as a result. Ohtani is elite at both hitting and pitching. Nobody else even comes close to that and it will be hard to overlook that 

[Lou]

27 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

He's hit 3 HR in Boston and 5 in each of Baltimore and Tampa but here's why he's going to win

.475/.573/1.017/1.590

That's in 76 PA in September. And I don't think that includes the 2 doubles and a walk last night vs Pit

I agree that he will win it. 

[Inside Pitch]

7 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Was thinking about this earlier today. They were talking about how much it might go for on the radio.

Younger me used to think "maaaan... you catch that ball, what do you do? You sell it and you're rich. But you keep it, and you're the only person in the world with something so historic!"

 

Current me would sell it for well under "rich". 

Going down in history as the guy that got rich selling that ball still counts.

[Angelsjunky]

As I've said before, there's a valid argument that Ohtani deserves it more than Judge - or rather, imo, as much as Judge (I personally don't think he's more deserving, and would give the award to Judge - but it is close enough to be worthy of discussion). 

For those talking about how historic Ohtani's season is, consider this: At 10.7 fWAR with a couple weeks left, Judge is almost certainly going to pass the 11 fWAR threshold. Now consider 11 fWAR seasons by decade:

1900s: 1 (Wagner)

1910s: 1 (Cobb)

1920s: 9 (six by Ruth, two by Hornsby, one by Gehrig)

1930s: 1 (Jimmie Foxx)

1940s: 4 (three by Williams, one by Musial)

1950s: 2 (both by Mantle)

1960s: 1 (Yaz)

1970s: 1 (Joe Morgan)

1980s: 0

1990s: 0

2000s: 3 (all Bonds)

2010s: None

Meaning, aside from the 1920s, there has been about one 11 fWAR seasons per decade, and none from 1976 - 2000, and none since 2004.

And of course there's a small chance he goes on a rampage and reaches 12 fWAR, of which there have only been ten previous seasons.

Given other factors - the NY/AL HR record, him playing for the Yankees, and him playing for a contender, I see it as very unlikely that they don't give him the award. And the basic point I keep re-stating: Angels fans (and butthurt Red Sox fans) have nothing to complain about, because Judge is very deserving.

[tdawg87]

3 hours ago, Lou said:

Judge also plays a shitload of games in Boston and Baltimore.

This is why OPS+ is the best offensive stat in that regard. He's first with a 215+. Trout's highest was 198. 

[ScottT]

10 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Was thinking about this earlier today. They were talking about how much it might go for on the radio.

Younger me used to think "maaaan... you catch that ball, what do you do? You sell it and you're rich. But you keep it, and you're the only person in the world with something so historic!"

 

Current me would sell it for well under "rich". 

I don't understand why people think the hitter is the "rightful owner" or it "belongs to him".  

I've heard both today.  

#60 wasn't making anyone rich.  I suppose the kid could be rich already.  

[AngelsFanSince86]

1 minute ago, ScottT said:

I don't understand why people think the hitter is the "rightful owner" or it "belongs to him".  

I've heard both today.  

#60 wasn't making anyone rich.  I suppose the kid could be rich already.  

Yeah I've never understood that.  These milestone/historical home run balls are hit by players making millions.  If it means that much to them then they can pay market price for it.

[Blarg]

The record setting ball belongs in the Hall of Fame. The ownership is determined by where it lands. If in a fan's hands then that's the owner. 

[ScottT]

2 hours ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

Yeah I've never understood that.  These milestone/historical home run balls are hit by players making millions.  If it means that much to them then they can pay market price for it.

Also.... they auction and sell game used stuff for a bunch.  Why shouldn't we?

I bought a game used baseball that Trout hit for a single for $200 a while back.  They've since upped the prices quite a bit.  Angels are asking $1599 for a Trout single.

Edited September 22, 2022 by ScottT

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Going down in history as the guy that got rich selling that ball still counts.

One selfie is all it takes.

 

Plus the second selfie I release years later where Im holding the ball in my lap, and I'm naked. And then everybody remembers that picture of me selling it to Judge, and him kissing it.

And my truck is paid off, new garage door and new washer and dryer.

I can dream.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Plus the gold of it all is when I write "Ohtani is MVP!" on the ball.

That would actually be worth giving up the million dollars for 

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

This is why OPS+ is the best offensive stat in that regard. He's first with a 215+. Trout's highest was 198. 

But with inflation everything is more now.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

Everything else being equal would you trade Ohtani for Judge? l wouldn't and that's my test for MVP.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Ace-Of-Diamonds

[HaloBronco]

2 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Everything else being equal would you trade Ohtani for Judge? l wouldn't and that's my test for MVP.

Great point. I agree.  

[m0nkey]

2 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Everything else being equal would you trade Ohtani for Judge? l wouldn't and that's my test for MVP.

That shouldn’t be

[cals]

If he has a last dominant win and blasts a couple more dingers it’s gonna be a tough call.  And I honestly don’t think anything less than the first legit breaking of Maris’ record could stop Ohtani.   But that’s where we are at.  

[Blarg]

Judge isn't having a one dimensional launch angle hitting season of just home runs. Maris' record alone doesn't win him anything more than a billboard and contract money. He is hitting everything at the plate this season. 

[cals]

10 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Judge isn't having a one dimensional launch angle hitting season of just home runs. Maris' record alone doesn't win him anything more than a billboard and contract money. He is hitting everything at the plate this season. 

Bla bla blah.

[Lou]

11 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Everything else being equal would you trade Ohtani for Judge? l wouldn't and that's my test for MVP.

That would involve your estimation of which player would be more valuable from this point going forward.

The MVP award is for the player more valuable in 2022.

[Jay]

Fangraphs has Judge at 10.7 WAR, Ohtani at 8.8

 

[gurn67]

I would vote for Judge because it's called Most Valuable, not Best, but every time I hear a player, or ex-player asked about it, I have no doubt who would win if it was a players' vote.

I don't know who the ex-starting pitcher was that I heard on the radio last night, but he was talking about how after a starting pitcher comes out of a game, they immediately go into the locker room to ice their arm down. Ohtani never does that because he has to stay in the game to hit. He said Ohtani is one of the five best starting pitchers, one of the five best power hitters, and one of the five fastest guys in the league.

[m0nkey]

Aaron Judge has not homered in 18 at bats.  Clearly this means he is faltering under pressure and is undeserving of the MVP, I'm sure.