Official 2022-23 Offseason Hot Stove Thread

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I disagree with the payroll/SS.  SS is our biggest area of opportunity with the possible exception of the pen.  You have this year to convince Ohtani to stay.  To get him to stay you more than likely need to win.  I’d feel much more comfortable getting a SS, whether its trade or one of the free agents.  If you go cheap at short, then you enter next year without a SS and possibly without Ohtani.  Oh and if you trade for Rosario you have to replace him next offseason while still trying to convince Ohtani to stay.

How often have big money out-of-house FAs worked out for this team over the past 12 years?

Pujols, Hamilton, Upton (although playing a month here before re-signing), and Rendon

Injuries are as big a fact of life as they’ve always been.  

Remember that the same owner signing those others is still here this off-season.

Best to focus the last big money for now on Ohtani

The Perry strategy has so far brought in a solid LHP starter, a solid enough 3B/1B, and a solid OF.  All for just $30+ million in 2023

Edited November 30, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[Warfarin]

14 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I feel ya. I wish the option isn't just to dump money at someone either. But the team doesn't have an everyday name at SS. We can all agree that Fletcher/Rengifo isn't that guy. 
Neto could be that guy, in a few years, but the negative side of that is we'd be hoping something clicks in a season that will likely determine if Ohtani stays or goes. 

If they trade for someone like Anderson or Adames, then by all means, that's amazing. But either way, this team desperately needs a bonafide SS to defensively/offensively carry this team.

The Angels don't have the farm system to just slot someone at a position to make an immediate impact. Given their farm system and players like Trout and Ohtani, they're forced to spend. 

 

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

The team has to win.  If you can’t count on the in-house options to solve SS right now, then you have to address it with a signing or a trade.

I really don’t care if they sign a premium SS in free agency, make a fair trade for a true solution or sell their souls to the devil in exchange for Neto magically being ready to be the answer in April.

To me, the very last choice for SS considering the train wreck that position was last year offensively is to roll with the bodies they have now on the mlb roster.

I feel we are basically on the same page, just maybe different parts of the page.

I definitely feel we need to upgrade SS without question.  It is our top priority moving forward.  But I would rather see them swing a trade to acquire one, instead of doling out a gigantic contract that they will likely start to regret by year 2 or 3.  I am for acquiring Rosario, Anderson, or even Adames (depending on his acquisition cost).

My only caveat to this is if the FO knows Ohtani is not going to stay.  If he has given some kind of indication that he will move on, then I will be on board with signing one of those top 4 SS options, as we would soon have a giant talent hole to fill.

[angelsnationtalk]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

The team has to win.  If you can’t count on the in-house options to solve SS right now, then you have to address it with a signing or a trade.

I really don’t care if they sign a premium SS in free agency, make a fair trade for a true solution or sell their souls to the devil in exchange for Neto magically being ready to be the answer in April.

To me, the very last choice for SS considering the train wreck that position was last year offensively is to roll with the bodies they have now on the mlb roster.

Our team might be better, but I honestly think Perry's decision about SS will be the deciding factor of making or missing the playoffs. 
Yes, it's expensive, but imagine a lineup of

1: Ward - LF
2: Correa - SS
3: Ohtani - DH
4: Trout - CF
5: Rendon - 3B
6: Walsh - 1B
7: Renfroe - RF
8: Fletcher - 2B
9: Stassi - C

[CanadianHalo]

My preference is the same regardless of cost 

Turner (He’s going to Philly/east coast)

Correa 

Xander

 

 

 

Swanson

 

The whole Neto thing is something you worry about when the time comes. We all dreamt of having a Marsh, Adell and Trout outfield and that never materialized. Xander will probably be playing 2nd in the near future. Correa given his size won’t be at short forever, Turner has position flexibility. 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I disagree with the payroll/SS.  SS is our biggest area of opportunity with the possible exception of the pen.  You have this year to convince Ohtani to stay.  To get him to stay you more than likely need to win.  I’d feel much more comfortable getting a SS, whether its trade or one of the free agents.  If you go cheap at short, then you enter next year without a SS and possibly without Ohtani.  Oh and if you trade for Rosario you have to replace him next offseason while still trying to convince Ohtani to stay.

I didn't write anything about not needing a SS

whatever Minasian does, it has to be something sustainable.  You're gonna have almost $160 mil in four players if you sign a big time SS and keep Ohtani.  

That would probably be 4 of the top 10 salaries in baseball on one team.  So regardless of the opportunity you have to maintain the financial health and/or flexibility of the team or else your sacrifices impact your ability to win in other ways.  You're already going to be in need of replacements for Renfroe and Urshela.  You might have to replace Walsh.  What if Rengifo drops back?  What if one of the SP's gets injured or a couple guys don't perform as well as you'd hoped.  

Do we need a SS?  Absolutely.  But if you go all in on four guys, you still have to figure out how to make it worth it with the other 20+.  Rendon would be your shortest commitment with four years left.  A lot can happen in four years.  

What's the point of committing to those four guys if it severely limits what else you can do to support them? 

 

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

What's the point of committing to those four guys if it severely limits what else you can do to support them? 

I think the correct answer to this question is the team must be able to produce talent from within the organization REGARDLESS of whether they have massive contracts or not.

If you have big contracts and no inexpensive homegrown talent, your team loses.

If you pass on big contracts and have no inexpensive homegrown talent, your team still loses.

So my point is I don’t think you shy away from acquiring the player you need right now worried about whether or not your farm can produce, especially when it appears they are going in the right direction.

But I fully admit, I am a fan that simply wants the maximum amount of talent on the field because I want to win.

 

[Stradling]

32 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

How often have big money out-of-house FAs worked out for this team over the past 12 years?

Pujols, Hamilton, Upton (although playing a month here before re-signing), and Rendon

Injuries are as big a fact of life as they’ve always been.  

Remember that the same owner signing those others is still here this off-season.

Best to focus the last big money for now on Ohtani

The Perry strategy has so far brought in a solid LHP starter, a solid enough 3B/1B, and a solid OF.  All for just $30+ million in 2023

How many of those free agents were signed by Minasian and Tamin?  

[ten ocho recon scout]

13 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

We need a "Super Like" button, or maybe the ability to like something twice.

This was gold.

Couldn't agree more. 

[Dtwncbad]

Just a preemptive observation. . . 

If the Angels sign a player to a big deal, we will see:

—half the posters saying they are showing Ohtani what he wants to see in a plan to keep Ohtani, and

—the other half will speculate that “that was the Ohtani money” speculating that signing the new player is an indication they have determined they will not pay Ohtani.

 

[Stradling]

21 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I didn't write anything about not needing a SS

whatever Minasian does, it has to be something sustainable.  You're gonna have almost $160 mil in four players if you sign a big time SS and keep Ohtani.  

That would probably be 4 of the top 10 salaries in baseball on one team.  So regardless of the opportunity you have to maintain the financial health and/or flexibility of the team or else your sacrifices impact your ability to win in other ways.  You're already going to be in need of replacements for Renfroe and Urshela.  You might have to replace Walsh.  What if Rengifo drops back?  What if one of the SP's gets injured or a couple guys don't perform as well as you'd hoped.  

Do we need a SS?  Absolutely.  But if you go all in on four guys, you still have to figure out how to make it worth it with the other 20+.  Rendon would be your shortest commitment with four years left.  A lot can happen in four years.  

What's the point of committing to those four guys if it severely limits what else you can do to support them? 

 

But if you don’t get a SS for beyond just this year, then you may not have to worry about resigning Ohtani.  So then you are down to two expensive players.  Maybe the trade for Adames, where he has two years left makes the most sense.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

12 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

I thought we would give O'Hoppe the job, he couldn't be any worse than the catchers were last year and he has the potential to do much better...

Personally, after seeing Adell rushed, I hope we keep him down there as long as it takes for him to succeed at the big level. I'd rather have Stassi or someone else try (and suck) w the big league club while Ohoppe develops than have Ohoppe come up too soon and potentially "adell" (as a verb)

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

But if you don’t get a SS for beyond just this year, then you may not have to worry about resigning Ohtani.  So then you are down to two expensive players.  Maybe the trade for Adames, where he has two years left makes the most sense.  

Is there any specific credible info on the Angels pursuing Adames and Adames being available in a deal, or is it just speculating the Angels could use a guy like Adames?

[Warfarin]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Is there any specific credible info on the Angels pursuing Adames and Adames being available in a deal, or is it just speculating the Angels could use a guy like Adames?

Speculation, as the Brewers are likely trying to cut payroll (as we just saw) and that someone like Adames could fetch a lot in return for them.

[Warfarin]

23 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think the correct answer to this question is the team must be able to produce talent from within the organization REGARDLESS of whether they have massive contracts or not.

If you have big contracts and no inexpensive homegrown talent, your team loses.

If you pass on big contracts and have no inexpensive homegrown talent, your team still loses.

So my point is I don’t think you shy away from acquiring the player you need right now worried about whether or not your farm can produce, especially when it appears they are going in the right direction.

But I fully admit, I am a fan that simply wants the maximum amount of talent on the field because I want to win.

 

I think the optimal plan would be to wait until your current crop of prospects has a year or two of MLB experience, and THEN you push the chips in and go for it.  We have seen other teams use this same approach, most notably the Padres.

If you start signing very expensive players first, and then you find out your young crop of players isn’t good, then you are really screwed for years to come, as you have no tradeable assets and a gigantic payroll.

Moreover, the expensive FA acquisitions usually start off pretty good in the first year or two, then start declining.  So you would want to time that signing with your young players established and playing well

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, Warfarin said:

Speculation, as the Brewers are likely trying to cut payroll (as we just saw) and that someone like Adames could fetch a lot in return for them.

I read something about them having a number of guys scheduled to hit free agency at the same time so it could be that they might consider trading one of those players.  But that’s still in the full speculation category.

I was just wondering if there was anything I missed that was more substantial than that.

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, Warfarin said:

I think the optimal plan would be to wait until your current crop of prospects has a year or two of MLB experience, and THEN you push the chips in and go for it.  We have seen other teams use this same approach, most notably the Padres.

If you start signing very expensive players first, and then you find out your going crop of players isn’t good, then you are really screwed for years to come, as you have no tradeable assets and a gigantic payroll.

OK but the “optimal plan” you describe doesn’t fit where the Angels are today with Trout/Ohtani/Rendon and how the rest of the roster sits.

I guess I just believe sometimes a team is in a specific situational window where they just need to pony up to fill some obvious needs.

And that’s exactly where I think this team is right now.

[Warfarin]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

OK but the “optimal plan” you describe doesn’t fit where the Angels are today with Trout/Ohtani/Rendon and how the rest of the roster sits.

I guess I just believe sometimes a team is in a specific situational window where they just need to pony up to fill some obvious needs.

And that’s exactly where I think this team is right now.

There is, of course, a middle ground to “ponying up” which is rather likely the best course of action - acquiring a solid SS via trade, who could either serve as a bridge to Neto in 1-2 years OR be re-signed depending on how Neto’s development pans out (I.e if he bombs).

This would seem to be the best course of action, in terms of creating a sustainable winner, then forking out a gigantic contract.  IMO.

[Pancake Bear]

2 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

There is, of course, a middle ground to “ponying up” which is rather likely the best course of action - acquiring a solid SS via trade, who could either serve as a bridge to Neto in 1-2 years OR be re-signed depending on how Neto’s development pans out (I.e if he bombs).

This would seem to be the best course of action, in terms of creating a sustainable winner, then forking out a gigantic contract.  IMO.

Trading for Adames is probably worse in terms of what it costs us than signing a free agent. He'll be pricey.

[Warfarin]

3 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Trading for Adames is probably worse in terms of what it costs us than signing a free agent. He'll be pricey.

I agree, and in truth, Rosario would probably be my top option, when you factor in acquisition cost, salary, and potential performance.

[mmc]

From TheAthletic's article today of free agent fits before the Winter Meetings

[BTH]

11 minutes ago, mmc said:

From TheAthletic's article today of free agent fits before the Winter Meetings

I’d be upset if the Angels spent $12.5M on Andrus, but it’s just a Bowden prediction that holds no water.

That money could be better utilized elsewhere.

[Taylor]

18 minutes ago, mmc said:

From TheAthletic's article today of free agent fits before the Winter Meetings

This is ... exactly the kind of move the Angels would make. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

10 minutes ago, Taylor said:

This is ... exactly the kind of move the Angels would make. 

Heaney and Romine were Andrus ...

[Angels 1961]

If you cannot sign a top FA SS and cannot trade for an Anderson, Adames or Rosario because price is too high. Andrus on 1 one-year deal may have to be the answer. Improve your team in other areas. Another starting pitcher like Bassitt. 

[angelsnationtalk]

Just now, Angels 1961 said:

If you cannot sign a top FA SS and cannot trade for an Anderson, Adames or Rosario because price is too high. Andrus on 1 one-year deal may have to be the answer. Improve your team in other areas. Another starting pitcher like Bassitt. 

If you can't sign one of the top 4 or trade for a top SS then the answer is to keep Rengifo/Fletcher at that position and strengthen your rotation or bullpen.