Official 2022-23 Offseason Hot Stove Thread

[Dtwncbad]

Just curious. . .

If the Angels did land one of the premium free agent SS, what is your order of preference without regard to expected contract cost?

Mine is:

Boegarts

Turner

Swanson

Correa

And what is your order of preference considering expected contract cost?

Mine is:

Swanson

Boegarts

Turner

Correa

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[angelsnationtalk]

9 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Just curious. . .

If the Angels did land one of the premium free agent SS, what is your order of preference without regard to expected contract cost?

And what is your order of preference considering expected contract cost?

 

FA preference:

Turner
Correa
Boegarts
Swanson

Cost preference:

Swanson
Boegarts
Turner
Correa

[Blarg]

The Premium Shortstop makes the Neto draft pick inconsequential. I don't think Minasian specifically picked Neto to toss him aside. He was a stud in college and successful at AA this season for 30 games at age 21, showing some amazing defensive skills.

This guy, along with O'Hoppe are the Angels future. 

I would be a little disappointed in Minasian if he went the lazy route and tried to buy the Angels a few more wins while costing them their payroll future. Tried that with Pujols, Hamilton, Upton and Rendon and I doubt their next big contract is going to fair much better. 

[Angel Oracle]

9 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

156 innings is perfect for a 6 man rotation. Ohtani barely threw more than that and he pitched the first and last games of the year...

That was 156 total innings over 2 years, just 78 per season.

[wopphil]

45 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The Premium Shortstop makes the Neto draft pick inconsequential. I don't think Minasian specifically picked Neto to toss him aside. He was a stud in college and successful at AA this season for 30 games at age 21, showing some amazing defensive skills.

This guy, along with O'Hoppe are the Angels future. 

I would be a little disappointed in Minasian if he went the lazy route and tried to buy the Angels a few more wins while costing them their payroll future. Tried that with Pujols, Hamilton, Upton and Rendon and I doubt their next big contract is going to fair much better. 

Neto could probably move to second base, or even the outfield. 

[Chuck]

13 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Neto could probably move to second base, or even the outfield. 

That and Rengifo could be packaged if Neto is big league ready for some help in other areas of weakness. It's moves like that which have helped teams make the playoffs and become perennial winners. 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Just curious. . .

If the Angels did land one of the premium free agent SS, what is your order of preference without regard to expected contract cost?

I’m not sure how to answer this without regarding expected contract cost.

Not necessarily dollars, but years matter in deciding how to answer this question.

Just for the 2023 season or for the life of the contract? Cause these players are going to age differently.

[Docwaukee]

never concerned about blocking prospects or having too many good players.   That said, unless payroll is going to a really high level on a go forward, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to spend big money on a SS.  

[Stradling]

22 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

never concerned about blocking prospects or having too many good players.   That said, unless payroll is going to a really high level on a go forward, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to spend big money on a SS.  

I disagree with the payroll/SS.  SS is our biggest area of opportunity with the possible exception of the pen.  You have this year to convince Ohtani to stay.  To get him to stay you more than likely need to win.  I’d feel much more comfortable getting a SS, whether its trade or one of the free agents.  If you go cheap at short, then you enter next year without a SS and possibly without Ohtani.  Oh and if you trade for Rosario you have to replace him next offseason while still trying to convince Ohtani to stay.

[Angelsfan1984]

Maybe they can swing a Correa type deal like the twins did. Big time 1 year commit with opt out.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I disagree with the payroll/SS.  SS is our biggest area of opportunity with the possible exception of the pen.  You have this year to convince Ohtani to stay.  To get him to stay you more than likely need to win.  I’d feel much more comfortable getting a SS, whether its trade or one of the free agents.  If you go cheap at short, then you enter next year without a SS and possibly without Ohtani.  Oh and if you trade for Rosario you have to replace him next offseason while still trying to convince Ohtani to stay.

The Angels have entered a "win-now" window for not only Trout, but now Ohtani. And it's potentially franchise altering if he leaves. 

Arte said a long time ago he'd spend over the tax if it's "for the right player". Ohtani has to be that player. Especially if they are deciding to keep him and attempt to be competitive. They almost have to spend on a top SS to avoid losing him because we whiffed on the playoffs again.

IMO It doesn't matter who the owner will be. Arte is still the current owner and he's got to see what's in front of him. The new owner will have to understand that spending more money just had to be done.  

[Hubs]

I say if you can add a guy, add him and worry about where Neto and other minor leaguers fit later. 

Rengifo in his "breakout" Season still only managed 17 walks and a .264 BA. His OBP was under .300.

Fletcher hit to a .621 OPS.

Neto played 30 games at AA, granted and hit .320 / .382 / .492. Neto may end up being the 2nd baseman, if they signed a SS.

They need a solid hitter in the MINF, and while Urshela will help there, but defensively he's not great. So... Velazquez would get a lot of late inning defensive replacement looks? That's not ideal. Velazquez cannot be counted on for regular innings going forward. 

Soto hit to a minor league .741 OPS at age 22 with 71 walks to 102 strikeouts in 119 games. That's decent, but more indicative of what type of player he is than the .400 /.414 / .582 / .996 OPS in 18 major league games.

Kyren Paris played just 14 games at AA, and hit well there after not hitting in high A (which may be indicative of the playing environment, there, this is not the old Cal League).

Jeremiah Jackson didn't hit well in AA either. Stefanic hit well in AAA, but not great in the majors, and is not a great fielder.

So organizationally, they have a lot of guys that will fill in somewhere, but I would not count on the minor leagues producing a starting SS in the 2023 season. 

I'd imagine Neto is the AAA SS, with Stefanic being the 2B. But Neto could repeat AA to open the year.

Jackson and Paris will be the duo at AA again. Though its possible Jackson moves up to AAA and Neto plays at AA to start, I would doubt that based on their performance numbers.

If you can add Turner, Bogarts, or Swanson, they fit. Correa should've been banned from baseball after the 2017 season, so I really hope they don't add him.

 

[Erstad Grit]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Just curious. . .

If the Angels did land one of the premium free agent SS, what is your order of preference without regard to expected contract cost?

Mine is:

Boegarts

Turner

Swanson

Correa

And what is your order of preference considering expected contract cost?

Mine is:

Swanson

Boegarts

Turner

Correa

Cost irrelevant 

Turner

Correa

Boegarts

Swanson

 

Factoring cost

Correa 

Boegarts

Swanson

Turner

[Vlad27Trout27]

Something else to consider, the SS market after this year is pretty bad, Next best free agent SS I believe is Anderson. So, take a shot and see if you can ger one, and hopefully SS is covered for the next several years. Allows Neto to develop in the minors, you can start Rengifo at 2nd. Flec is the UL, and adds depth with Soto, Neto in the Minors. Plus give guys like Paris and our other young middle infielders times to develop. Second point it provides  values to make a in season trade.

[Dtwncbad]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

The Premium Shortstop makes the Neto draft pick inconsequential. I don't think Minasian specifically picked Neto to toss him aside. He was a stud in college and successful at AA this season for 30 games at age 21, showing some amazing defensive skills.

This guy, along with O'Hoppe are the Angels future. 

I would be a little disappointed in Minasian if he went the lazy route and tried to buy the Angels a few more wins while costing them their payroll future. Tried that with Pujols, Hamilton, Upton and Rendon and I doubt their next big contract is going to fair much better. 

Regarding Neto, who said anything about “tossing him aside”?

Neto is a premium prospect with a bat that has some pop.  Multiple scouting reports say there is a debate on whether he should stay at short or move to 2B (just like the vast majority of SS prospects).

There is a black hole at SS right now in terms of overall offense in the lineup and the team clearly needs/wants to win in 2023, for lots of obvious reasons that will have a long-term effect on the organization.

If you can get a premium SS now, and your biggest problem is you have an elite prospect at SS “blocked” then maybe that would be some evidence that the front office is starting to build a stacked, deep group of overall talent.

Contrast that with a bandaid at SS for two years holding the job open for Neto and the team being less successful and certain high profile players concluding they want to be elsewhere?

And finally the old adage that prospects are for two purposes.  1). to fill a hole you have and 2). to trade for a player to fill a different hole

We will see what happens but I would be thrilled to have one of the top 4 shortstops, win more games now, and then suffer the torture of having an elite asset that I have to decide between sliding to second or trading for another key piece to win.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Warfarin]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

The Premium Shortstop makes the Neto draft pick inconsequential. I don't think Minasian specifically picked Neto to toss him aside. He was a stud in college and successful at AA this season for 30 games at age 21, showing some amazing defensive skills.

This guy, along with O'Hoppe are the Angels future. 

I would be a little disappointed in Minasian if he went the lazy route and tried to buy the Angels a few more wins while costing them their payroll future. Tried that with Pujols, Hamilton, Upton and Rendon and I doubt their next big contract is going to fair much better. 

I agree with you. The only way Minasian deviates from this, IMO, is if one of the star SS come to the Angels and say they will willingly accept a significantly below market contract to join the team, which is not going to happen.

Minaisian drafted Neto to specifically fast track him and get him to the majors fairly quickly, based on how they have handled his development.  It would be different if he drafted a HS SS who is starting off in low A and many years away; that is not the case here.

I am firmly of the belief that the team would be financially screwing itself over for many years moving forward if they dole out a 250+ mil contract to one of the FA SSs.  Having 4 players combine for 150mil of payroll for many years just seems like a terrible idea, unless you have the best farm system in baseball and are about to pump out a ton of young, solid players.

[Dtwncbad]

And will all of these 4 Shortstops stay at SS?   Maybe one of these guys ends up at 2B, 3B, 1B or even LF in a couple of years themselves as they get older.

I don’t see having too much SS talent as a problem.  Somebody can be traded or moved to another position, either the aging veteran or the young guy trying to crack a mob lineup.  If you can play SS in the majors you can play just about anywhere on the diamond.

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

 Having 4 players combine for 150mil of payroll for many years just seems like a terrible idea, unless you have the best farm system in baseball and are about to pump out a ton of young, solid players.

Like Neto?

[angelsnationtalk]

5 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

I agree with you. The only way Minasian deviates from this, IMO, is if one of the star SS come to the Angels and say they will willingly accept a significantly below market contract to join the team, which is not going to happen.

Minaisian drafted Neto to specifically fast track him and get him to the majors fairly quickly, based on how they have handled his development.  It would be different if he drafted a HS SS who is starting off in low A and many years away; that is not the case here.

I am firmly of the belief that the team would be financially screwing itself over for many years moving forward if they dole out a 250+ mil contract to one of the FA SSs.  Having 4 players combine for 150mil of payroll for many years just seems like a terrible idea, unless you have the best farm system in baseball and are about to pump out a ton of young, solid players.

I'd take signing Correa over waiting for Neto or relying on Rengifo/Fletcher any day. 

Any one of the other 3 slot perfectly at 2B.

Financials do concern me, but if the opportunity shows itself then the Angels shouldn't shy away.

[Warfarin]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Like Neto?

A wave of them -  not just a few.  I think our farm system is improving and am a fan of the direction is going in, but we aren’t yet an elite draft and develop team.

[Dtwncbad]

Just now, Warfarin said:

A wave of them -  not just a few.  I think our farm system is improving and am a fan of the direction is going in, but we aren’t yet an elite draft and develop team.

Yes, but a wave of players like Neto right?

So having Neto supports the theory that you can add a stud player for a position of immediate need.

[Warfarin]

1 minute ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I'd take signing Correa over waiting for Neto or relying on Rengifo/Fletcher any day. 

Any one of the other 3 slot perfectly at 2B.

Financials do concern me, but if the opportunity shows itself then the Angels shouldn't shy away.

On the surface, yes.  I am for getting good players.  However, opportunity cost is a very real thing in this sport and most facets of life.  While it’d be great if this team can spend endlessly, that is not the reality, and decisions have to be made in terms of financial allocation.

Everyone was super pumped about signing Rendon and how he’d solve 3B for years.  Here we are, several years later now, acquiring a 10mil backup in case he gets hurt again, and wishing us contract would vanish so we could better spend the money.

It is the same cycle over and over again, in terms of trying to make a big, flashy signing.

[Warfarin]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Yes, but a wave of players like Neto right?

So having Neto supports the theory that you can add a stud player for a position of immediate need.

Yes, ideally - but you would acquire players for other positions, not the one you can fill with good, solid youth.

SS is one of the most expensive positions to fill.  If you can avoid having to fill it with a very expensive player about to enter the wrong side of 30, you do that.

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, Warfarin said:

On the surface, yes.  I am for getting good players.  However, opportunity cost is a very real thing in this sport and most facets of life.  While it’d be great if this team can spend endlessly, that is not the reality, and decisions have to be made in terms of financial allocation.

Everyone was super pumped about signing Rendon and how he’d solve 3B for years.  Here we are, several years later now, acquiring a 10mil backup in case he gets hurt again, and wishing us contract would vanish so we could better spend the money.

It is the same cycle over and over again, in terms of trying to make a big, flashy signing.

I feel ya. I wish the option isn't just to dump money at someone either. But the team doesn't have an everyday name at SS. We can all agree that Fletcher/Rengifo isn't that guy. 
Neto could be that guy, in a few years, but the negative side of that is we'd be hoping something clicks in a season that will likely determine if Ohtani stays or goes. 

If they trade for someone like Anderson or Adames, then by all means, that's amazing. But either way, this team desperately needs a bonafide SS to defensively/offensively carry this team.

The Angels don't have the farm system to just slot someone at a position to make an immediate impact. Given their farm system and players like Trout and Ohtani, they're forced to spend. 

[Dtwncbad]

The team has to win.  If you can’t count on the in-house options to solve SS right now, then you have to address it with a signing or a trade.

I really don’t care if they sign a premium SS in free agency, make a fair trade for a true solution or sell their souls to the devil in exchange for Neto magically being ready to be the answer in April.

To me, the very last choice for SS considering the train wreck that position was last year offensively is to roll with the bodies they have now on the mlb roster.