Players and Owners far apart

[TooCool]

All I have to say is... RIP Mike Trout's stats.

[Pancake Bear]

There are actually people still taking the owners side? I tend to lean pro-owner reflexively, but there’s no legit argument in favor of the owners in this case for anyone actually aware of the facts. 

[kevinb]

2 hours ago, Tank said:

You don’t seem to grasp that the money owners use to pay the players comes from the fans who buy tickets and merchandise. If fans can’t afford to buy those things, then the owners don’t have as much money to pay the players. This isn’t algebra.

 

They do. But I don’t think the owners are going to be hurting if there’s no fans in the stadium as much as you do. Neither do the players believe that. These negotiations are going to get rough. Pro rated salaries is fair to all parties included. Unless you want to defer payments then the players can do that as well but players should not and will not accept a 60-80% pay cut.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Again, i dont know the specifics.

But it seems to me that the players union is essentially fighting it because it could set precedent. "We give in to this, what next?" I totally get that. 

But I think this all uncharted territory. @Tank mentioned about fans not being able to afford tickets. I think it goes beyond that. What if fans arent even allowed in to begin with?

The payrolls are figured out based on the income of the org, with extras added like TV deals. Well if they play with no fans, what is the organizations income? No tickets, no parking, no food sales. Sure, you dont have to pay the ushers, but that aint shit. The overhead here is huge.

The fact is, the teams will lose huge money this year (they already have). And not bad vegas weekend money, but potentially crushing losses. The argument is "but they made a killing in the past".

Well, so have the players. Should the owners be able to say "hey trout, we have like a fraction of revenue coming in because of this. You need to lose money in the overall scheme this year, because we made you rich as hell before this year"?

 

 

Again, Im not taking ownerships side here. Its just not as simple as saying "this group has more money, so they should be the one to cave."

 

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

MLB is also one of the rare sports with guaranteed contracts, too.

Would the players union support renegotiated contracts for sunk costs, like Pujols?

"Arte has made a killing! He invested 200 million, and now the team is worth a billion!" 

Very true. But add up the pujols, hamilton, wells, gmj, cj wilson etc deals from the past decade.... those were all losses. Huge ones.

Its not all profit.

[ScottT]

The players and this fan are far apart.

[ScottT]

Skaggs. Astros. Now this? I'm tired of it all.

They better get this done  its slightly more important than the pace of play 

[Pancake Bear]

It's pretty simple:

The players and owners have a system in which the owners do not share revenue. This is one reason why the players immediately rejected the owners' first offer of a 50-50% split on revenue this season (that and it's a really bad deal for the players financially for a number of reasons, both in general and this year specifically).

Because of this, the owners benefit disproportionately when baseball is doing well. Estimates have the sport somewhere around 7-10 billion in profits over the last few years. The players get their money, but don't share in the extra profit except insofar as salaries go up with inflation. The owners take responsibility for both risk and reward.

In past years, there has been no talk from the owners of sharing said windfall with players, but now? They want the players to share disproportionately with them in losses.

How much will they lose? Per the owners, roughly $4b this season. But that number has already been shown to a be a lie just based on info made publicly available. Estimates by independent sites suggest that even with only prorated salaries for players the owners may not be looking at a deficit at all this year when all is said and done - at least not in baseball revenue.

The problem is we don't actually know the full financial situation of the owners - and neither do the players precisely or for certain. And that's a problem. The owners want the players to take a massive cut (actually, for the minimum salary players and the next tier up the deal isn't that awful, but it still isn't great) despite the fact that they've already lost half their money for the year (and most players don't have all that many years of their skills being worth what they are now). The players have rightly accepted that loss - nobody made any money of the lost 82 games; there is no money, so nobody is to blame for it's loss - yet the simple equation is that they've already lost a lot of money in 2020.

Now the owners want them to give up significantly more. The players believe the owners are being deceptive. The owners have accountants skilled at hiding money to make them look less successful publicly so they can shrug when people complain about them being cheap. This is the problem with sharing revenue: It is way too easy to engage in creative bookkeeping to screw the players out of what is their due.

Subsequently, the union wants to see certain information in the financials. Basically, if the owners really are losing money, they should be able to prove it. They won't show it, though, because they've had a long history of successfully blaming all their problems on 'greedy players'. They don't want to give up any more money than they have to. The owners obviously are hurting this year, too.

Personally, I think the owners' nonsense comes down to a couple of things:

- If they can get the players to give in now, it sets a precedent for the upcoming labor battle: No one wants to give in too easily.

- The owners likely are hurting in other holdings due to the pandemic and are trying to make up for losses in other areas (outside of baseball) at the expense of the players.

Either way, it's garbage, and until the owners show the financial documents, I have zero sympathy for them. And if worst comes to worst and there is no season, I'm 100% blaming the owners and the league.

Personally, I think the simplest solution is a full prorated salary for the bottom tier or two and a full prorated salary (possibly minor cuts depending on whether the owners actually are in the red) for the higher tiers with a moderate deferral paid out over the next few years.

[Pancake Bear]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

MLB is also one of the rare sports with guaranteed contracts, too.

Would the players union support renegotiated contracts for sunk costs, like Pujols?

"Arte has made a killing! He invested 200 million, and now the team is worth a billion!" 

Very true. But add up the pujols, hamilton, wells, gmj, cj wilson etc deals from the past decade.... those were all losses. Huge ones.

Its not all profit.

People always point to the bad contracts, but the reality is that the league as a whole has done extremely well by all accounts. I'm fairly certain Arte has done just fine as well. I don't buy at all this "I lost money last year" nonsense. It's typical accounting bullshit excuses.

[yk9001]

Is baseball gonna fuck this up?  I think baseball is going to fuck this up.

[floplag]

Baseball used to be about the fans... its clear to me that it no longer is.  The business of it has become the only true driving factor.
Every other league apepars to be doing what it takes to work with each other and make something happen, MLB and the players union dont seem to care at all and are using this as the first round of the CBA fight. 
At this point i dont think we will see a season, and well get the usual back and forth finger pointing each blaming the other to the point where we will see another work stoppage or lock out as part of the next CBA.
I hate to be the full negative nancy but the game as we know it may be effectively over as if that happens the loss of fans will be tremendous.  It took the ecxitement of McGuire and Sosa to bring people back last time... i dont see that happening again in the era of walk is as good as a hit no running boring baseball. 

[Claude]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

Baseball used to be about the fans... its clear to me that it no longer is.  The business of it has become the only true driving factor.
Every other league apepars to be doing what it takes to work with each other and make something happen, MLB and the players union dont seem to care at all and are using this as the first round of the CBA fight. 
At this point i dont think we will see a season, and well get the usual back and forth finger pointing each blaming the other to the point where we will see another work stoppage or lock out as part of the next CBA.
I hate to be the full negative nancy but the game as we know it may be effectively over as if that happens the loss of fans will be tremendous.  It took the ecxitement of McGuire and Sosa to bring people back last time... i dont see that happening again in the era of walk is as good as a hit no running boring baseball. 

For the right amount of money the players could give a rats ass about the fans. 

[Claude]

Even the players are divided. This is going to continue to get uglier. Greed kills.

[Stradling]

Of course it is about money, at the same time it is about what is right.  No one is playing this game for free.  Once again, forget the zeros and ask yourself if you were really good at your job if you would be willing to do it for 25% of what your value is?  The answer is going to be no, nor should you.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, yk9001 said:

Is baseball gonna fuck this up?  I think baseball is going to fuck this up.

The only real question is how bad they will fuck this up.

[Claude]

37 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Of course it is about money, at the same time it is about what is right.  No one is playing this game for free.  Once again, forget the zeros and ask yourself if you were really good at your job if you would be willing to do it for 25% of what your value is?  The answer is going to be no, nor should you.  

Strad I’ve said it a number of times. This situation is bad for everyone involved. They should stop the war peacefully and just pull the plug on 2020. Avoid playing the blame game to reduce any negative publicity. Take the offseason and regroup while the Covid-19 situation settles down in time. Use that idle time to realign divisions, implement rule changes, revamp the playoffs, give teams time to rebrand with new uniforms, allow players to use MLB facilities to stay in shape.
 

They also need some time to heal the game because of the unfortunate mishaps that transpired the past few seasons. I really do think that they could improve a lot of things if they just took the time to do it. Now is a good time to get that done. Sure we will miss baseball but it could be even greater in its return with fans in the stands. Fan-less games are really ridiculous and clearly sends a bad message. 
 

If they wait until 2021 to play for full pay I think the players will be happier too. They should start the offseason now and start free agent signings and trades instead of the mad dash at the end of the season. This gives every team plenty of time to prepare for a full legit season. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by RendZone

[m0nkey]

I was dying for a season but I secretly hope that they fuck it all up. 

[Duren, Duren]

There has always been an incredible degree of tension between owners and the players union. Never is the phrase 'for the good of the game' a priority. Always hostile 'us versus them.' More so than in any other sport.

1981 and 1994 were nasty. If the season never starts because of this hardline conflict 2021 could be worse. The covid issue will be over, but fans will retain the memory of yet another polarized dispute ruining the integrity of the sport. 

[Angel Oracle]

On 5/26/2020 at 11:54 PM, Kevinb said:

That wasn’t even supposed to be a rant about rich guys being bad either. I just think that the media is playing the players like money grubbers which they are but so are the owners. At the end of the day I hope something gets done but I don’t think the players should accept a fourth of their salary. It should be a true prorated salary. They also should do what these theme parks and living spaces etc are doing. Open up the games for people. U can do screening at the gate for temperatures and whatever else. It’s time. The world is ready. 

Why can’t the governors allow 33% of seats occupied at the games?   That should pretty much insure two empty seats out of every three, which has to be close enough to 6 feet?

[Stradling]

18 minutes ago, RendZone said:

Strad I’ve said it a number of times. This situation is bad for everyone involved. They should stop the war peacefully and just pull the plug on 2020. Avoid playing the blame game to reduce any negative publicity. Take the offseason and regroup while the Covid-19 situation settles down in time. Use that idle time to realign divisions, implement rule changes, give teams time to rebrand with new uniforms, allow players to use MLB facilities to stay in shape.
 

They also need some time to heal the game because of the unfortunate mishaps that transpired the past few seasons. I really do think that they could improve a lot of things if they just took the time to do it. Now is a good time to get that done. Sure we will miss baseball but it could be even greater in its return with fans in the stands. Fan-less games are really ridiculous and clearly sends a bad message. 
 

If they wait until 2021 to play for full pay I think the players will be happier too.

Or as fans we can understand how negotiations work and wait it out.  

[DMVol]

43 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Of course it is about money, at the same time it is about what is right.  No one is playing this game for free.  Once again, forget the zeros and ask yourself if you were really good at your job if you would be willing to do it for 25% of what your value is?  The answer is going to be no, nor should you.  

I think I would be willing to recognize that a global pandemic creates uncharted territory and try to work something out with the owners, rather than digging my heels in....I'm not very much impressed with the owners in all of this but I am less impressed by the players....

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, DMVol said:

I think I would be willing to recognize that a global pandemic creates uncharted territory and try to work something out with the owners, rather than digging my heels in....I'm not very much impressed with the owners in all of this but I am less impressed by the players....

Yea I get that neither party looks good.  
One thing I find really shitty is Oakland has decided to not pay their minor leaguers, yet they aren’t free agents.  That’s total bullshit. 

[Inside Pitch]

7 minutes ago, DMVol said:

I think I would be willing to recognize that a global pandemic creates uncharted territory and try to work something out with the owners, rather than digging my heels in....I'm not very much impressed with the owners in all of this but I am less impressed by the players....

You're an atty right?   Whats the old adage about not signing until you've read the fine print?   Now, try imagining a situation where you're being asked to sign something and being told -- BTW, we are going to keep the fine print hidden -- just trust us.

That's the world MLB players have been living in..   This isn't just about the pandemic to them, this is about the last few years and a system that they know is completely one sided.

[Inside Pitch]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yea I get that neither party looks good.  
One thing I find really shitty is Oakland has decided to not pay their minor leaguers, yet they aren’t free agents.  That’s total bullshit. 

They also can't collect unemployment insurance because they are contracted employees...    There is a ton of shit that MLB has gotten away with for eons and nobody has ever given a shit about.  

[Blarg]

57 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Of course it is about money, at the same time it is about what is right.  No one is playing this game for free.  Once again, forget the zeros and ask yourself if you were really good at your job if you would be willing to do it for 25% of what your value is?  The answer is going to be no, nor should you.  

This is not apples to apples comparison. The money that even MLB minimum players get is well beyond executive salaries. The money the mid tier and top tier gets is staggering. At some point their accountability comes into question given the frivolity of their occupation. Baseball and all sports are frivolous ventures for public amusement.