Players and Owners far apart

[Angels 1961]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

Trout might befine, but what about Kenley Jansen, or the pitcher from the Indians who had cancer?  

There is no perfect solution players know the risk. 

[Claude]

Poor baseball players. Can’t risk playing under pandemic conditions for lower pay but if they get really good pay the pandemic quickly becomes secondary. Lol @ MLB. Go file for unemployment. 

[Stradling]

I’m sure all of us are chomping at the bit to go to work in an elevated risk situation for 20% of our market value.  Once again the zeros shouldn’t matter, unless jealousy is involved.  

[Claude]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I’m sure all of us are chomping at the bit to go to work in an elevated risk situation for 20% of our market value.  Once again the zeros shouldn’t matter, unless jealousy is involved.  

Or their pride. 

[Claude]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I’m sure all of us are chomping at the bit to go to work in an elevated risk situation for 20% of our market value.  Once again the zeros shouldn’t matter, unless jealousy is involved.  

In-n-out lines are backed up to the streets. Are the burger flippers getting extra pandemic pay? I see them working in close proximity every time I drive through. 

[Angels in 2030]

I usually get annoyed at the players in labor talks and money.  But i gotta admit, i think the owners are putting the squeeze on players here....knowing that they can and ignore the LT health of MLB.  The owners have tons of money coming in, incredible appreciation of their assets, etc.  I have a masters in Acctg/tax -- i understand the bogus nature of accounting numbers all too familiar. MLB is setup for misleading annual accounting GAAP financial statement figures.

 

Regardless, those numbers thrown around for players to take this year seem way low.  sure the season is less and they should get less since they are playing less games.  That's obvious.  But they should get full playoff figures.  Also, sure there is less income due to little-to-no fans at games (if that happens).  But you're missing out on the fact that their might be bigger media/advertising from much more people watching on TV.  There's also way less daily expenses for owners if there is no fans at games, potentially less travel costs too, etc.  

 

But even beyond that, owners need to take some hit due to this situation for the betterment of MLB long-term.  I think they are thinking long-term, but in a different sense -- they are thinking about labor relations and future deals.  Whereas they should be thinking LT from a fan standpoint and bringing in more/younger fans.  Instead they are going to alienate fans and continue to push them elsewhere.

Final point, i do find it a bit odd that a business would make employees take a discount on agreed to terms in this financial situation.  Many companies are struggling (or at least less profitable) -- mine included.  But am I and the rest of the company staff being asked to decrease my salary?  Heck no.  But i guess it's apples-oranges comparison since sports leagues have more of a partner relationship.  So i understand that.  Still, it really does seem like the owners are trying to push everything down on the players this time. 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

I think the owners are absolutely trying to put it to the players but from a business standpoint it's not unexpected.  They have a number in mind and they're trying to get to it by pitting the highly compensated players against the majority of players who make much less.  I have no idea how the approval of an agreement happens, i.e. if it's a majority vote, if veterans have more pull or so on but I imagine there's guys on the lower end of the income scale even in MLB terms (i.e. set to make millions before this hit) looking at the pay scale and thinking how much do I want to push back for a fraction more of my salary at the risk of making even less.  Like average workers I'm sure some players are levered or cash poor especially guys with guaranteed contracts who have expenses they didn't think would be an issue that now could be.  I also wonder if pending FA's are thinking about what not playing may do to the 2020 FA market.  Then you have the CBA set to expire after next season and if revenues have taken a major hit because the 2020 season doesn't happen I would think that hurts the MLBPA's bargaining power.  Maybe I'm off on all of this but everyone's situation is different and there's both short and long term implications based on how this plays out. 

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, RendZone said:

In-n-out lines are backed up to the streets. Are the burger flippers getting extra pandemic pay? I see them working in close proximity every time I drive through. 

The associates are getting paid Their normal pay, plus bonuses and part timers are guaranteed 80% of their average hours and full timers 100% of their average hours, whether they work them or not based on less business.  You know what they aren’t getting paid?  20% of what they’ve shown to be their worth.   

[Claude]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

The associates are getting paid Their normal pay, plus bonuses and part timers are guaranteed 80% of their average hours and full timers 100% of their average hours, whether they work them or not based on less business.  You know what they aren’t getting paid?  20% of what they’ve shown to be their worth.   

 

You have the privilege of working for a solid company. I find that your employees are always courteous when I go there.

[Stradling]

In their defense, they don’t know you

[aznhockeyguy]

2 hours ago, Fourts said:

I usually get annoyed at the players in labor talks and money.  But i gotta admit, i think the owners are putting the squeeze on players here....knowing that they can and ignore the LT health of MLB.  The owners have tons of money coming in, incredible appreciation of their assets, etc.  I have a masters in Acctg/tax -- i understand the bogus nature of accounting numbers all too familiar. MLB is setup for misleading annual accounting GAAP financial statement figures.

 

Regardless, those numbers thrown around for players to take this year seem way low.  sure the season is less and they should get less since they are playing less games.  That's obvious.  But they should get full playoff figures.  Also, sure there is less income due to little-to-no fans at games (if that happens).  But you're missing out on the fact that their might be bigger media/advertising from much more people watching on TV.  There's also way less daily expenses for owners if there is no fans at games, potentially less travel costs too, etc.  

 

But even beyond that, owners need to take some hit due to this situation for the betterment of MLB long-term.  I think they are thinking long-term, but in a different sense -- they are thinking about labor relations and future deals.  Whereas they should be thinking LT from a fan standpoint and bringing in more/younger fans.  Instead they are going to alienate fans and continue to push them elsewhere.

Final point, i do find it a bit odd that a business would make employees take a discount on agreed to terms in this financial situation.  Many companies are struggling (or at least less profitable) -- mine included.  But am I and the rest of the company staff being asked to decrease my salary?  Heck no.  But i guess it's apples-oranges comparison since sports leagues have more of a partner relationship.  So i understand that.  Still, it really does seem like the owners are trying to push everything down on the players this time. 

I'm also an accountant with a CPA designation and this is what I try to to explain to people.  The accountants of the teams/MLB can make it look like they're losing more money through various accounting treatments and paper moves.  Owners have been VERY hesitant to disclose full audited financial figures to anyone.  Remember when teams were crying poor to get new stadiums, and a lot of these new stadiums got built without a city official even seeing verified financial statements.  It was essentially a tax handout to owners.  I don't believe the owners one bit that they're losing as much as they're saying.  

Another point I like to make is that in essence this is labor vs owners/management.  Yes these players are highly compensated in comparison to you and me, but owners don't do anything and they make more than the players combined.  Why don't people rag on the owners to "suck it up" and pay the players?  The first 3 years the players make the league minimum and then the next 3 is arbitration, before they are finally allowed to hit the market.  I don't blame them for saying no to any sort of salary reduction for this season.  The players have already lost half a season of earning power in a very limited window of a career for some of these players, while for most owners, this loss is a bucket compared to their net worth and they can own the team forever until they sell it. 

If there's no season, I won't complain about it, and I'm pretty sure it'll be mostly the owners fault for being greedy and trying to penny pinch. 

[Angels in 2030]

I find it odd too why the general public rails against rich athletes getting paid so much to play a game.  Meanwhile there's almost no talk of Tom Cruise, Will Smith, RD Jr., etc.  making tens of millions in movies and we have to pay so much at the theaters.  Or musicians making tens of millions for concerts (without any new music whatsoever and usually drunk/etc. playing on stage) and yet we pay $100's for tickets.  Athletes, imho, have more talent and put more work in then either of these two sectors.  Some of these are complete talent-less messes (btw, i'm actually friends with a few of these TL RMFers).  It's just funny to me why athletes get this crap from average Joe but not the other entertainment sectors like the rock star, actor, etc.

Then there's some CEOs that get crazy millions and do crap to the company...but that's another story (& that one actually is complained about more).

[Lou]

If a player can't feed his family because he's only making $7.5 million this year, fuck him. 

[aznhockeyguy]

7 minutes ago, Lou said:

If a player can't feed his family because he's only making $7.5 million this year, fuck him. 

If Owners can't fuel his yacht with 150 million this year, fuck him.

[kevinb]

27 minutes ago, Randy Gradishar said:

I will say that sometimes I do actually criticize the players, because I'd like to think I'd pull a Weaver or Brady to help my team win. But this has nothing to do with winning, so it's a no-brainer. It's just rich vs mega-rich.

Brady doesn't even want to pull a Brady anymore, he got so burnt out and over being treated like garbage he went to the Tampa Bay Rays.... I mean Buccaneers. 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

1 hour ago, aznhockeyguy said:

I'm also an accountant with a CPA designation and this is what I try to to explain to people.  The accountants of the teams/MLB can make it look like they're losing more money through various accounting treatments and paper moves.  Owners have been VERY hesitant to disclose full audited financial figures to anyone.  Remember when teams were crying poor to get new stadiums, and a lot of these new stadiums got built without a city official even seeing verified financial statements.  It was essentially a tax handout to owners.  I don't believe the owners one bit that they're losing as much as they're saying.  

Another point I like to make is that in essence this is labor vs owners/management.  Yes these players are highly compensated in comparison to you and me, but owners don't do anything and they make more than the players combined.  Why don't people rag on the owners to "suck it up" and pay the players?  The first 3 years the players make the league minimum and then the next 3 is arbitration, before they are finally allowed to hit the market.  I don't blame them for saying no to any sort of salary reduction for this season.  The players have already lost half a season of earning power in a very limited window of a career for some of these players, while for most owners, this loss is a bucket compared to their net worth and they can own the team forever until they sell it. 

If there's no season, I won't complain about it, and I'm pretty sure it'll be mostly the owners fault for being greedy and trying to penny pinch. 

The owners are putting up the money to bank roll the team.  If a player shits the bed the owners have zero recourse to get money back unless they insure against injury and I remember reading on here some time back that it's expensive to do.  For every young guy who outperforms his club control years or gets screwed by the service rules there's many more veterans who have sizeable contracts that never live up to them.  If they ever tried to give money back in this day and age I'm sure the MLBPA would take issue with that because it sets a dangerous precedent.  If you expect the owners to suck it up because of their net worth then we can apply the same reasoning to the players who were slated to make 30M+ this year because even at a discounted rate they'd make more this year under the current proposal than 99% of us will make in our lifetimes and they'd be helping out the lowest paid players.  I'm not going to vilify one side more than the other because of their net worth's.    

[Slegnaac]

9 minutes ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

The owners are putting up the money to bank roll the team.  If a player shits the bed the owners have zero recourse to get money back unless they insure against injury and I remember reading on here some time back that it's expensive to do.  For every young guy who outperforms his club control years or gets screwed by the service rules there's many more veterans who have sizeable contracts that never live up to them.  If they ever tried to give money back in this day and age I'm sure the MLBPA would take issue with that because it sets a dangerous precedent.  If you expect the owners to suck it up because of their net worth then we can apply the same reasoning to the players who were slated to make 30M+ this year because even at a discounted rate they'd make more this year under the current proposal than 99% of us will make in our lifetimes and they'd be helping out the lowest paid players.  I'm not going to vilify one side more than the other because of their net worth's.    

I am sure many here remember Lyman Bostock trying to give back his salary.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

7 minutes ago, Slegnaac said:

I am sure many here remember Lyman Bostock trying to give back his salary.

When I posted that he came to mind.  To say it was commendable is an understatement but I just couldn't imagine any players lining up to do that now.  That said I don't blame them because both them and the owners signed off on their guaranteed contracts.  I just find it odd that people will support the owners or players in this situation when it's really billionaires vs. millionaires especially based on the current proposal.  The highest paid players even under the current proposal would net for half a years work after taxes and paying their agents enough to put them in the top 5% of net worth's in the US.  In all of this if there isn't a season the people who will suffer the most financially are the lowest paid players and people working in the front office or at stadiums who don't make a lot.  Unfortunately there isn't much that can be done for the stadium workers right now but having a season would keep other behind the scenes employees employed.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

8 minutes ago, Randy Gradishar said:

Owners don't necessarily lose money if a player sucks or gets hurt. 

A more apt comparison would be the players getting more money when the team makes more, which they don't. And now the owners are trying to take away money from the players because the team is making less.

And you won't vilify the owners for making more than the players, but will vilify the players for making more than you.

They sure as hell don't get fair value out of their investment and it's a sunk cost when guys like Mo Vaughn and Josh Hamilton aren't even playing.  Do companies give employees more when they're profitable?  Sometimes but they're not required to and neither are MLB owners.  When businesses start to lose money sooner or later they have to make cuts whether it's cutting salaries or employees that's the nature of business unless you're the government and can print money or pass the cost on to taxpayers.  Please point out where I vilified players in this thread.  As I've mentioned multiple times I don't fault them if a season doesn't happen any more than I do the owners.  If they want the season to happen bad enough they can and financially they'd likely all be better off than if the season didn't happen.  Players would at least know what they're going to make while the owners would have more of an unknown because of lost ticket and merchandise sales along with a decreased revenue share.  That's the risk and reward for owners of owning a team or even for other business owners who take on the risk of owning a company.  What they choose to do with their earnings is their right.    

[Tank]

10 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Again that doesn't matter. Other peoples jobs don't matter in the argument. Just because my next door neighbor lost his job that means I should take a 70 percent pay cut? Why? That sucks that people are losing jobs and I feel for them and their families, but baseball players or any other job shouldn't take into effect someone else losing their job. We range from 3 to 10% unemployment rates right now it's a bit higher for a time being, but jobs are going to come back once the government lock down stops. So These athletes should take a 70% pay cut because people are going to be out of jobs for a month or two or three or four? I just don't get it. 

You don’t seem to grasp that the money owners use to pay the players comes from the fans who buy tickets and merchandise. If fans can’t afford to buy those things, then the owners don’t have as much money to pay the players. This isn’t algebra.

 

[Inside Pitch]

https://mobile.twitter.com/max_scherzer/status/1265842546619691010

Pretty much what I said a couple weeks ago...  Players aren't going to do shit unless MLB opens its books.  Owners will never do it, too much to lose.

[m0nkey]

When will we see someone on tv say "shut up and play"?

[rageous]

At this point I do not see the league coming back.

They will come back in 2021 to a much lower fanbase.

[mmc]

 

[Angels 1961]

10 hours ago, RendZone said:

In-n-out lines are backed up to the streets. Are the burger flippers getting extra pandemic pay? I see them working in close proximity every time I drive through. 

Price of double double did go up