Angels fire Doug White and Josh Paul

[greginpsca]

I think Jim Hickey might be the new pitching coach, if Maddon is the new manager. He was with Maddon in Tampa & Chicago. He is now with the Dogs as a special assistant.

[Angelsfan1984]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

So much for we have Coles pitching coach 

Pretty sure Cole made Doug White look good more than the other way around. I mean...2019 Cy Young?

[T.G.]

Wow.

There goes my prediction of Josh Paul being the next manager.  Truth be told, he was just as responsible for the debacle in 2005 vs. the White Sox as Doug Eddings was.  Glad to finally be rid of him.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, bruin5 said:

For Eppler to fire these two it’s obvious he was not happy with their work and is owning that decision (as well he should).  I would assume the other coaches are being kept around to a) see if Maddon wants them, or more likely b) return them to other roles in the organization (like Gallegos had before he became 3B coach).  

I don’t see White’s firing as representing retrenchment from analytics, but rather recognizing that White just wasn’t good at his job.  

Exactly. I've spoken about this since end of May.

[Hubs]

White was objectively terrible.

His communication just wasn't there, without an established manager or another pitching coach to work it through with.

I don't think the standard stats really show how bad he was working with starters, because of the opener.

[Docwaukee]

what a shit show.  

[yamsi12]

34 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Wow.

There goes my prediction of Josh Paul being the next manager.  Truth be told, he was just as responsible for the debacle in 2005 vs. the White Sox as Doug Eddings was.  Glad to finally be rid of him.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, bruin5 said:

I want to get Ebel back just to get Gallego off of 3B.  

This, was it just me, or was Gallego the Human Stop Sign at 3B?   Gotta have some aggressiveness on the bases.

I would re-assign Gallego back to his previous job in the org.   I would also keep Griffin and Reed/Sorrento.   The team progressed hitting wise, until the injuries to the lineup piled up.   Griffin has been a solid defense instructor for the infielders and a solid base coach since 2000. 

I was willing to give White the other two years, until reading that article recently.    You ABSOLUTELY have to communicate well with your pitchers as pitching coach.   White does not have the pitching background to do that, only 9 pro innings in rookie ball. 

The team needs to find a happy medium, more analytics than Sosh seemed to accept, but also have the same approach with focus/fundamentals that Sosh had.    Maddon fits that well.   Ausmus didn't.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Agree 100%, his comments came off as entirely too passive for me.   I think it was @Dochalothat asked....  HOW did you see them not doing things and yet not doing something about it.   That has stuck with me from the moment I read it.

I mean, you don't have to be Terry Collins and obsess over shit but FFS, you can't just let guys tune you out completely and let it go unchallenged.

Basketball analogy, it was almost like Ausmus just roll the baseballs out on the field and let the players do the rest without input?

[Dtwncbad]

Looks like a full changing of the guard.

The big question is will Alex Curry be replaced?

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Agree 100%, his comments came off as entirely too passive for me.   I think it was @Dochalothat asked....  HOW did you see them not doing things and yet not doing something about it.   That has stuck with me from the moment I read it.

I mean, you don't have to be Terry Collins and obsess over shit but FFS, you can't just let guys tune you out completely and let it go unchallenged.

Personally, I think I tend to over communicate so it's hard for me to know whether it's as important as I think it is.  I'd rather risk coming off as condescending and knowing for sure that everyone is on the same page than assuming so when things weren't actually clear.  Brad is a really smart guy from an IQ standpoint it seems.  Clearly, communication is a issue though.  

There are a few takeaways I see from this 

First, there is no way around it, but Eppler does not look good in any of this.  Regardless of the reason why all the people around him failed, they all still failed miserably and that's not a good optic for him. 

Second, it's hard to know whether these changes have been instigated by Billy or Arte.  It would make me feel a little better if it was Billy, but I have my doubts about that unless something that couldn't be repaired was going on.  

Which brings me to my next point which is maybe it was more of a riff between Billy and Brad than we were privy.  If the coaching staff did a shit job of implementing the vision of the front office then they should go.  If Doug White is a poor communicator then it's on the Chief and assistant Chief of the dugout to make sure the message is clear.  If Brad wasn't on board with that then he should be fired.  If White was trying to get something across and Brad wasn't supportive or White wasn't good at it then then Ausmus should have been there to help him.  

I still think that 95% of the job of the manager and bench coach are to take care of the clubhouse.  The other 5% is in game strategy.  The main job of the pitching coach is to take what you have in certain players and keep it the same or make it better.  To help players make adjustments big and small.  The one area where White probably lacked ability was due to his lack of experience.  'Hey, you're dropping your shoulder a bit here', 'your plant foot is a little of there'.   Having an overall philosophy is one thing.  Helping guys with minor tweaks in between or in the midst of starts is huge.  

I didn't think they would can Ausmus that quickly although I see it as a welcome change.  I think we all recognized that White wasn't having the impact he should and I was hoping they would bring in someone who could bridge his philosophy to real mechanics and sequencing.  I hope they don't abandon the use of trackman etc. but find a way to make it more applicable.  I don't have a clue what Paul did or didn't do but clearly it wasn't what they thought it should be.  

The things that speak against this being all Arte is that #1, Eppler still has a job, and #2, they have so far, kept all the hitting coaches, who, on the surface, seemed to do a nice job.  

The next steps will be very interesting.  If Arte has lost confidence in Billy then we could see someone put above him like a Dombrowski which I think would be a huge mistake.  If Eppler is really pulling the strings and truly the one instigating change, then we'll see a change of Nate Horowitz (current director of pro scouting).  Or at least some changes in the pro scouting department.  

Random google search btw shows that Nick Lampe (former assistant of international and pro scouting) was elevated to coordinator of international and pro scouting.  maybe this is just one of those internal things to keep a guy happy, but it happened less than a month ago.  @Jeff Fletcher, could this mean anything?  

[failos]

That's a bit surprising

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Exactly. I've spoken about this since end of May.

Yes you spoke of it in May when you didn’t have the track record yet to speak of it.  

[failos]

1 hour ago, True Grich said:

Wow.

There goes my prediction of Josh Paul being the next manager.  Truth be told, he was just as responsible for the debacle in 2005 vs. the White Sox as Doug Eddings was.  Glad to finally be rid of him.

Same

[Jeff Fletcher]

39 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Random google search btw shows that Nick Lampe (former assistant of international and pro scouting) was elevated to coordinator of international and pro scouting.  maybe this is just one of those internal things to keep a guy happy, but it happened less than a month ago.  @Jeff Fletcher, could this mean anything?  

I think you’re looking way to hard. A move at that level is not really significant.

[Pujols4MVP]

Firing those two guys is a case of: "We fixed the glitch"

 

[Vlad27Trout27]

55 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Personally, I think I tend to over communicate so it's hard for me to know whether it's as important as I think it is.  I'd rather risk coming off as condescending and knowing for sure that everyone is on the same page than assuming so when things weren't actually clear.  Brad is a really smart guy from an IQ standpoint it seems.  Clearly, communication is a issue though.  

There are a few takeaways I see from this 

First, there is no way around it, but Eppler does not look good in any of this.  Regardless of the reason why all the people around him failed, they all still failed miserably and that's not a good optic for him. 

Second, it's hard to know whether these changes have been instigated by Billy or Arte.  It would make me feel a little better if it was Billy, but I have my doubts about that unless something that couldn't be repaired was going on.  

Which brings me to my next point which is maybe it was more of a riff between Billy and Brad than we were privy.  If the coaching staff did a shit job of implementing the vision of the front office then they should go.  If Doug White is a poor communicator then it's on the Chief and assistant Chief of the dugout to make sure the message is clear.  If Brad wasn't on board with that then he should be fired.  If White was trying to get something across and Brad wasn't supportive or White wasn't good at it then then Ausmus should have been there to help him.  

I still think that 95% of the job of the manager and bench coach are to take care of the clubhouse.  The other 5% is in game strategy.  The main job of the pitching coach is to take what you have in certain players and keep it the same or make it better.  To help players make adjustments big and small.  The one area where White probably lacked ability was due to his lack of experience.  'Hey, you're dropping your shoulder a bit here', 'your plant foot is a little of there'.   Having an overall philosophy is one thing.  Helping guys with minor tweaks in between or in the midst of starts is huge.  

I didn't think they would can Ausmus that quickly although I see it as a welcome change.  I think we all recognized that White wasn't having the impact he should and I was hoping they would bring in someone who could bridge his philosophy to real mechanics and sequencing.  I hope they don't abandon the use of trackman etc. but find a way to make it more applicable.  I don't have a clue what Paul did or didn't do but clearly it wasn't what they thought it should be.  

The things that speak against this being all Arte is that #1, Eppler still has a job, and #2, they have so far, kept all the hitting coaches, who, on the surface, seemed to do a nice job.  

The next steps will be very interesting.  If Arte has lost confidence in Billy then we could see someone put above him like a Dombrowski which I think would be a huge mistake.  If Eppler is really pulling the strings and truly the one instigating change, then we'll see a change of Nate Horowitz (current director of pro scouting).  Or at least some changes in the pro scouting department.  

Random google search btw shows that Nick Lampe (former assistant of international and pro scouting) was elevated to coordinator of international and pro scouting.  maybe this is just one of those internal things to keep a guy happy, but it happened less than a month ago.  @Jeff Fletcher, could this mean anything?  

I think you are correct of everything. it basically came down to communication, we know White had a tough time communicating with his pitcher, and Both Ausmus and Paul should have helped, but with Paul getting fired aswell makes you question whether that communication occured.

I actually though about pair White with a guy like searage in some capacity, and work with both philosophies.

[bruin5]

To me, this season was all about Eppler implementing his vision now that Sosh was gone.  He worked with Ausmus for a year to train him on managing using analytics, and totally ignored that his downfall in Detroit was in part caused by his lack of communication with the players.  Then, mad scientist Eppler hires White to implement his pitching analytics without knowing if he can actually coach. Lastly, Gallegos is put at 3B because analytics must have shown that being aggressive on the bases doesn’t pay off according to the numbers. 

Now Eppler just pissed a lot of  trust and confidence Arte had in him.  If Maddon is hired he will be the one calling many of the shots, starting with picking his own staff and choosing his brand of baseball.  We may be drifting back to the DiPoto/Sosh balance of power arrangement.   

[fan_since79]

Doug White can sleep like a baby now that he doesn't have to worry about the pitching staff anymore.

Now let's get someone in here who can get results!

 

[fan_since79]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Looks like a full changing of the guard.

The big question is will Alex Curry be replaced?

She's nice to look at but those postgame 'interviews' are silly, and the gatorade showers are a tired old shtick.

"Tell us what your mind set was at the end there."

"I was looking for a pitch to hit, Alex."

Duh.

[Troll Daddy]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Looks like a full changing of the guard.

The big question is will Alex Curry be replaced?

everyone is fearful of Arte’s terror  ... that includes Jeff Fletcher kidding 

[Claude]

The Rally Monkey keeps his job. Go figure. 

[Dick B Back]

18 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

She's nice to look at but those postgame 'interviews' are silly, and the gatorade showers are a tired old shtick.

"Tell us what your mind set was at the end there."

"I was looking for a pitch to hit, Alex."

Duh.

Let’s face it... FSW could do much worse than Alex Curry!

 

[yk9001]

18 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

She's nice to look at but those postgame 'interviews' are silly, and the gatorade showers are a tired old shtick.

"Tell us what your mind set was at the end there."

"I was looking for a pitch to hit, Alex."

Duh.

Every team does them.

Did you hear the dullard on TBS on the field after the Nationals game last night?

[ten ocho recon scout]

20 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

She's nice to look at but those postgame 'interviews' are silly, and the gatorade showers are a tired old shtick.

"Tell us what your mind set was at the end there."

"I was looking for a pitch to hit, Alex."

Duh.

To be fair, as lame as the interviews are, can you (or anyone) do better? Meaning, can anyone think of a fresh take after EVERY routine game?

Its the same as the players. You do this every day, its tough to think of anything new to say.

The gatorade shit is old, though. You do that when something crazy happens, like a walk off. Not you had the game winning rbi in the 6th, and nobody scored after.