How do we fix this realistically?

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, disarcina said:

I am just bewildered how everything collapsed so quickly to get the Halos where they are today heading into July 4th

You're not alone there, bro.

[disarcina]

3 minutes ago, True Grich said:

You're not alone there, bro.

True Grich - thanks !  

as the old country. song goes, "misery loves company"

[stormngt]

4 hours ago, Halos666 said:

You have Arte SELL THE TEAM!!!!!

change the name back!!!

horrible contracts and terrible decision from the top , cut the head off, sell the team, get rid of the problem, SELL THE TEAMM!!!!

I guess you missed the word "realistically"  in the question

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

[HeavenlyHalos]

I don't want them to trade Trout. I want them to re-sign Ohtani. I don't think this franchise has a chance under Arte at this point so might as well have two of the best players of this generation to watch in the meantime. 

[arch stanton]

I know Doc mentioned this before and it's one of my overriding beliefs for building teams in any sport but you have to raise the floor of your active roster. Doesn't matter how great your superstars play if you have black holes in your pen, bottom of your rotation, or anywhere on the field. The first rule of becoming great is to just not suck. When there's competence in all areas then the bright spots can shine through

[Sully151]

Can Arte take on partners in ownership to form one of the conglomerates the big market teams seem to have?

 

[aznhockeyguy]

3 hours ago, gotbeer said:

The team we see now is a product of years of mismanagement from the highest levels. 

Firing the scouting department.  Cutting funding in scouting and development.  Corruption in the scouting department.  

Then we get to the major league level of signing splashes, sometimes against the GM.  Saying we are a big market team, and will spend what it takes, then having GM after GM fail to spend, always within some budget range.  Never going all out to spend to improve the team, and if we do, losing out on the best as they use us to go to a more desirable team.  Then after losing on players, never having another plan, and instead spending for that splash player that we didn't have a need for and the rest on the table scraps of the offseason.  

We really need a reboot, starting at the top.  Because the top won't change, and we'll be languishing with two of the best players in the league till they leave, then being competitive with the Pirates, Orioles and Diamondbacks of the world for that top pick for decades.

Pretty much this.  Arte needs to stop penny pinching and start investing in the scouting and development of the team and let them do their fucking jobs.  If he won't do that then go over the payroll luxury tax and allow Perry to sign good players to cover the gaps in the roster. 

I know we all hate Dipoto and what he did but since he got hired at Seattle in late 2015, their team record since 2016 excluding this season is 438-432.  The Angels? 409-461 about 4-5 wins worse per season.  Mariners farm system has been very good and has recently been ranked very highly in numerous publications and has the leading candidate for AL ROY in Julio Rodriguez and has produced Logan Gilbert who has a 141 ERA+ this season. The Angels not so much 20th and their hot prospect in Adell has lost some of his shine and is trending towards bust territory.  Fletcher has been decent but has recently fallen off.  Walsh has been a surprise at 1B and Walsh is serviceable at LF.  Payroll: Angels 8th, 190 million, Mariners: 22nd, 107.5 million.  So the Angels are spending and spending poorly, while the Mariners have a lot of money left to spend.  Mariners have also made some smart trades and signings the last few seasons.  Ty France, Robbie Ray, and Paul Sewald to name a few.  They went through a complete rebuild a few seasons ago and looks like they're about to bust out. 

Eppler has only been with the Mets for less than 2 seasons but he's made some strong moves to help the team.  Lindor trade, Scherzer signing, Walker signing, Marte signing (for now).  New ownership helps in that regard, and they look really good this season, but of course the Mets have one the 2nd highest payroll and 260+ million, so they should be winning and they are. 

The success/future success of the Angels' previous GM's proves my point is that the entire problem is Arte and his meddling. It'll be because of Arte this team will not be winning unless he does one of two things, invest in scouting and development and start a rebuild and be patient, or start spending way over the tax.  Presently, he's not doing either and the Angels will be in purgatory until he decides to do one or the other and he seems perfectly content with that because people are still watching and going to the games to the tune of 3 million per season. 

[T.G.]

The last time the Angels had an owner, GM and manager who were on the same page, they won a World Series. The owner (Disney) got out of the way and the the manager and GM transformed the  organization into a winner.

After that trio went their separate ways, the organization became dysfunctional over time and here we are. 

Mike Scioscia and Bill Stoneman don’t get enough credit for transforming the organization. Disney didn’t get enough credit for letting them.

I have no idea how the Angels get back to that level of success, the way it’s currently constructed and managed.

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by True Grich

[tomsred]

Please start by replacing this GM, I don't think he has any idea of what he's doing.

[T.G.]

19 minutes ago, True Grich said:

 

I have no idea how the Angels get back to that level of success, the way it’s currently constructed and managed.

Actually… more than anything else, Stoneman and Scioscia changed the organization’s culture. 

That needs to happen again.

I just don’t have any confidence the current leadership can do that. After all, Arte and his leadership team created this current culture…

[tomsred]

Until this organization learns to recognize real talent, and then develop and use it properly there is no hope.  I agree with True Grich that a winning culture has not been implemented, mostly because of poor decisions being made by the baseball organization within this team.

[T.G.]

We live in an era now where the front office has all the power. They even pick the coaching staff. In the past, the manager did that.  They even play a bigger role in the lineup, batting order, etc. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not - but given most GM’s didn’t play the game at a high level, it concerns me.

With that power comes great responsibility. If things aren’t working, they need to be held accountable.

[tomsred]

21 minutes ago, True Grich said:

We live in an era now where the front office has all the power. They even pick the coaching staff. In the past, the manager did that.  They even play a bigger role in the lineup, batting order, etc. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or not - but given most GM’s didn’t play the game at a high level, it concerns me.

With that power comes great responsibility. If things aren’t working, they need to be held accountable.

I agree.  There were a lot of decisions made by the baseball office that I disagree with.  

I would have done the following:  Picked up a talented SS in the off season when they were plentiful (like Story, or Chris Taylor), and in retrospect that would have eliminated the need for Velasquez, Mayfield, and Wade.  I would not have signed Thor as I thought his price was too high.  I would have not dropped Upton as he was hot in Spring Training, at least not until there had more major league history on Marsh and Adel.  I would have not fired Maddon, his experience was too valuable.  I would have given more latitude to Maddon, and not meddled so much with regard to coaching staff and in game decision making.  There were a lot of reliable starters available when the off season started, and too many were bypassed.

Things I did agree with:  I thought signing Lorenzen and letting him try starting was a good idea, especially given that he could revert to the bullpen as necessary.  Strengthening the bullpen was a good idea, but couldn't Perry have found some younger and harder throwers?

 

 

[Docwaukee]

Can they fix the current roster?  Yeah probably but it's probably gonna take some extra money to do so above and beyond what they're already spending.

Can they fix the root problem of why what they're spending isn't enough even though it should be?    I don't know.  They haven't been able to figure that out for about 10 years now so I'm not sure increasing the amount they have to spend is suddenly going to improve decision making.  And that's what it boils down to poor decision making.  There is a real disconnect between what makes teams successful and how the Angels have been operating for a long time.  Almost two decades now.  

There's a common denominator and we've beat the Arte thing to death but it really all changed when Arte took over and Stoneman stopped being the GM.  Personally, I think Stoneman saw the writing on the wall.  It's not like he was old at the time being only 63 when he was replaced.  I just think it was clear to him that the direction was changing and the resources to do what made him successful as a GM would no longer be there.  

Because 4 gm's have come and gone since over the last 15 or so years since he left and they all only have one thing in common.  Failure.  Why are they all failing.  All in different yet similar ways.   And in the last 10 years or so, this entire franchise has essentially been living off one player.  Now it's kinda two. 

To bring that home, check out the following:

since 2012, the Angels have 200.9 WAR from their offense/defense.    Mike Trout is responsible for 79.7 of that.  40% from one person.  113.2 of that came from pitching.  Meaning that he's been about 25% of the team's total value over that time.  

by comparison, Albert Pujols put up 81.2 WAR from 2001 to 2011 for STL.  Total team offense/defense was 310.6 (26%) and pitching of 133.3 for a total of 443.9.  So his total contribution was about 18%

let's do a couple others 

Bonds with the Giants from 93-07.  123.7 WAR.  Team war of 548.6.   22.5%

Ruth with the yankees from 1920 to 1934.  150 WAR.  Team war 709.5.  21%

Maybe Ted is a good example because he never won a championship.  

130.4 WAR for BOS from 1939 to 1960.  Missed 43-45.  Team WAR of 793.1 (after subtracting the years he missed).  16%

Granted, the above three includes later in their careers while Trout's only include through age 30/31.  But it just gives you a sense of the island he's been on for the last decade.  

 

 

 

[beatlesrule]

Here's what this writer thinks

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/maybe-angels-should-just-trade-mike-trout-or-shohei-ohtani-to-salvage-franchise/ar-AAZ2dHL

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, beatlesrule said:

Here's what this writer thinks

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/maybe-angels-should-just-trade-mike-trout-or-shohei-ohtani-to-salvage-franchise/ar-AAZ2dHL

Good article what many have been saying. This will be hanging over Angels all off season. 

[CaliAngel]

I don't understand why these assholes can't just hit the fucking baseball.

It's all they're paid to do.

It's embarrassing.

[tomsred]

9 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Here's what this writer thinks

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/maybe-angels-should-just-trade-mike-trout-or-shohei-ohtani-to-salvage-franchise/ar-AAZ2dHL

A lot of what this writer said was good, but he missed the mark on Trout's frustration showing in center field  when he thought Peguero was tipping pitches.  Peguero was intentionally doing that just to throw off the hitters, he practically threw all the same pitches to the hitters even though he was trying to distract them into thinking he was going to throw something else.  The TV  announcers (primarily Gubi) covered that this weekend on some commentary.  I was surprised when they were talking about it.  In any event the hitters liked the one pitch he was throwing because they blasted it all over the field.

[tomsred]

6 hours ago, CaliAngel said:

I don't understand why these assholes can't just hit the fucking baseball.

It's all they're paid to do.

It's embarrassing.

Well, they are paid to catch the ball and make outs as well, maybe they can't walk and chew gum at the same time though.

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, tomsred said:

Well, they are paid to catch the ball and make outs as well, maybe they can't walk and chew gum at the same time though.

And the pitchers are paid to get them out. It’s an incredibly dumb argument.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

11 minutes ago, tomsred said:

A lot of what this writer said was good, but he missed the mark on Trout's frustration showing in center field  when he thought Peguero was tipping pitches.  Peguero was intentionally doing that just to throw off the hitters, he practically threw all the same pitches to the hitters even though he was trying to distract them into thinking he was going to throw something else.  The TV  announcers (primarily Gubi) covered that this weekend on some commentary.  I was surprised when they were talking about it.  In any event the hitters liked the one pitch he was throwing because they blasted it all over the field.

Sounds like bullshit CYA to me

[tomsred]

7 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Sounds like bullshit CYA to me

Well he did throw virtually all the same pitches, and he has only two in his arsenal.  He belongs in AAA, not the major leagues.

[Angels 1961]

13 hours ago, tomsred said:

I agree.  There were a lot of decisions made by the baseball office that I disagree with.  

I would have done the following:  Picked up a talented SS in the off season when they were plentiful (like Story, or Chris Taylor), and in retrospect that would have eliminated the need for Velasquez, Mayfield, and Wade.  I would not have signed Thor as I thought his price was too high.  I would have not dropped Upton as he was hot in Spring Training, at least not until there had more major league history on Marsh and Adel.  I would have not fired Maddon, his experience was too valuable.  I would have given more latitude to Maddon, and not meddled so much with regard to coaching staff and in game decision making.  There were a lot of reliable starters available when the off season started, and too many were bypassed.

Things I did agree with:  I thought signing Lorenzen and letting him try starting was a good idea, especially given that he could revert to the bullpen as necessary.  Strengthening the bullpen was a good idea, but couldn't Perry have found some younger and harder throwers?

 

 

What amazing to me people say sign a talented SS. That talented SS has to want to come to Angels. Players know this is a organization not run well. Good players want to go to winning teams. When will fans learn overspending for players just hurts the team.  Trout is properly frustrated and telling Ohtani get out when you get the chance. Even to trade Trout to get anything back halos would have to take back money. Ohtani is gone just hope he does not end up with Dodgers. 

[IheartLA]

The season unraveling is for two reasons. The bullpen trio not playing anywhere close to what we thought we were getting and Rendon getting hurt. The doom and gloom wouldn't be here b/c we wouldn't have had a 14 game losing streak, wouldn't have scapegoated Maddon, would be close to if not in one of the WC spots. The wheels feel like they're falling off and I place most of the blame on Iggy/Loup/Tepera/Rendon. Not Wade/Velazquez or any other journeyman as we shouldn't have been expecting much anyways.