The official (slightly early) off season discussion thread. Let's hear your plan.

[Vlad27Trout27]

I think the battle for 2nd and 3rd are going to be an interesting for a few reason

1. If Cozart's bat rebounds, he the 3rd baseman and either Flecther/Rengifo/Fernandez are at 2nd ,

2. If Cozart struggles he at 2nd to start the season and  Ward/Flec are at 3rd

3. IF Ward destroys the ball in Spring Training, he starts at 3rd moving Cozart to second. 

 

[Vlad27Trout27]

I think Our Main focus should be to sure up the Bp, make it as dominate as possible.  Anderson, Buttery, Robles Have closer type of stuff, than You Mix in Cole and Parker and they have alt east Set-up man stuff, than their are Alvarez and Bedrosian. Adding someone like Familia and if the price is right Miller ( 1yr deal?) into it would make out Bp a strong weapon.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

On 9/29/2018 at 10:32 PM, wopphil said:

And FWIW, I think the Angels will have a huge offseason. 

I dont...unfortunately...except that trout gets resigned.

400 mill deal incoming im betting.

@Dtwncbad, youve made some comments about how some of us are aiming too low, being too content.

The reality is the trout extension negotiations are on the table. And have been. Its not about the team not wanting to compete. Its about trying to balance locking trout up and winning with him in the next contract.

If they flail this offseason, dont extend him, and dont sign anyone else...that a huge fail. But if they lock him up, dont sign anyone else, the team wont be any better next year...but its a huge win.

[ukyah]

3 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Forget the current MLB pool. They will struggle to hit with the marine layer, or get TJS.

I sqy, spend the free cash on Luca Brasi. Have him convince pujols to retire.

this is a good idea, because luca and trout are already sleeping together.

[Lou]

with apologies to Corbin, extending Trout would make it a huge offseason 

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, Lou said:

with apologies to Corbin, extending Trout would make it a huge offseason 

Heres the kicker.

If we sign trout this winter, that will be THE big off season. Not much more. And the team wont be improved.

That will be a let down to some on here. Which is silly. My point being, we should focus on long term success, not short term. So the complaints about the recent underwhelming offseasons are short sighted.

Weve done a pretty decent job treading water with the bloated payroll, lack of a farm, old roster. Were not out of the woods yet. It will still take some time. But its more important to retain trout than to chase houston next year, fail, and lose trout in 2 years.

[WeatherWonk]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That's what I would do, but I don't think that's what Eppler is going to do.

Simmons will play SS and Pujols will play as much 1B as he can. Cozart will play 2B or 3B. The other infield spot, and the 1b partner with Pujols will be whoever emerges among Fletcher, Ward, Fernandez, Rengifo, Walsh, Thaiss. He basically told them all to prepare to come win a job.

From outside: they may get a part-time 1b supplement, and they will probably get a catcher. He didn't really address the 4th OF situation, but Hermosillo is really the only internal candidate there, and he seems like he has a long way to go (to me).

He pretty clearly said he didn't feel urgency to add to the position players at all, except for catcher, and even there I don't think he feels he needs to get a frontline guy.

I'm just not seeing where the offensive internal upgrades he alluded to, are going to come from. Especially with Pujols playing 1B so much. That will negate Ohtani's increased hitting (assuming he comes back by May or so).

So, no Machado, no Donaldson, no Harper, no Cutch, no leadoff guy with a .350+ OBP. Probably get "creative" in terms of acquiring pitching, again.

Arte is wearing his Salary Cap, apparently. 

No, not THIS cap. Far from it.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

58 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

I'm just not seeing where the offensive internal upgrades he alluded to, are going to come from. Especially with Pujols playing 1B so much. That will negate Ohtani's increased hitting (assuming he comes back by May or so).

So, no Machado, no Donaldson, no Harper, no Cutch, no leadoff guy with a .350+ OBP. Probably get "creative" in terms of acquiring pitching, again.

Arte is wearing his Salary Cap, apparently. 

No, not THIS cap. Far from it.

 

If trout signs the richest contract in baseball history this winter, will you still call the team cheap?

Between trout and pujols, the angels have 2 of the top 10 highest players in baseball. Upton is top 20. 

 

[kevinb]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Heres the kicker.

If we sign trout this winter, that will be THE big off season. Not much more. And the team wont be improved.

That will be a let down to some on here. Which is silly. My point being, we should focus on long term success, not short term. So the complaints about the recent underwhelming offseasons are short sighted.

Weve done a pretty decent job treading water with the bloated payroll, lack of a farm, old roster. Were not out of the woods yet. It will still take some time. But its more important to retain trout than to chase houston next year, fail, and lose trout in 2 years.

Please define pretty decent job treading water? We haven't even gotten to .500 in 3 seasons

[ten ocho recon scout]

37 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Please define pretty decent job treading water? We haven't even gotten to .500 in 3 seasons

Which is of course more difficult when your starting rotation misses most of those 3 seasons.

If we won 3 more games this year, would you feel more content? 

Treading water simply says that a team that lost its rotation long term and had nothing to trade and little to spend still played about average, while building for tomorrow.

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Which is of course more difficult when your starting rotation misses most of those 3 seasons.

If we won 3 more games this year, would you feel more content? 

Treading water simply says that a team that lost its rotation long term and had nothing to trade and little to spend still played about average, while building for tomorrow.

Yes I would have at least it would be progress. But 3 years in a row they haven't even been .500. I don't get this little to spend thing. We are well under the cap and two of the three high priced players on our team are productive. Trout and Upton we have ONE bad contract in Pujols. What are the other super high priced bad contracts on the team?

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Yes I would have at least it would be progress. But 3 years in a row they haven't even been .500. I don't get this little to spend thing. We are well under the cap and two of the three high priced players on our team are productive. Trout and Upton we have ONE bad contract in Pujols. What are the other super high priced bad contracts on the team?

Every pitcher who didnt pitch is a bad contract...

Cozart nit playing is a bad contract...

Etc etc.

Trout pujols and upton alone make about 100 mill of the 180 or so we have to spend. Add kole at 10, richards for example etc etc. 

Lets say they sign one bonafide stud this year, like machado. Now were over the luxury tax, fine. But whats left to plug in to replace richards and ohtani as the opening day SPs next year? 

Now lets say instead, we sign corbin. Same problem. And were still trotting out ward at 3B, fletcher at 2B, arcia at C, calhoun in RF etc etc.

This teams primary problem is SP health. And it has been since skaggs first went down in 2015.literally every year the last 3 seasons weve had to use bondo to plug the rotation holes. And even if we went crazy and signed sherzer a few years back, wed still have had to use chacin, bridwell and the rest of that crap to replace shoe, heaney, skaggs, richards etc.

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Every pitcher who didnt pitch is a bad contract...

Cozart nit playing is a bad contract...

Etc etc.

Trout pujols and upton alone make about 100 mill of the 180 or so we have to spend. Add kole at 10, richards for example etc etc. 

Lets say they sign one bonafide stud this year, like machado. Now were over the luxury tax, fine. But whats left to plug in to replace richards and ohtani as the opening day SPs next year? 

Now lets say instead, we sign corbin. Same problem. And were still trotting out ward at 3B, fletcher at 2B, arcia at C, calhoun in RF etc etc.

This teams primary problem is SP health. And it has been since skaggs first went down in 2015.literally every year the last 3 seasons weve had to use bondo to plug the rotation holes. And even if we went crazy and signed sherzer a few years back, wed still have had to use chacin, bridwell and the rest of that crap to replace shoe, heaney, skaggs, richards etc.

So we have one bad Pujols contract. Injuries happen. Cozart was signed by Eppler. Upton was signed by Eppler. Trout is getting paid what he should. This team isn't built well. Resources aren't spent wisely. But we have one Pujols bad contract that takes up 25 mil. Everyone else is a reflection of what Eppler is doing. If he didn't want a bloated payroll then don't sign guys to crap contracts that's strictly on him. So far what he has done with the major league roster I am not impressed with. If his only move this off season is signing Trout and nothing else then that is a horrible off season. Trout's contract will likely go to 40 mil a year which leaves even less in terms of payroll flexibility. Figure it out other teams have. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

7 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

So we have one bad Pujols contract. Injuries happen. Cozart was signed by Eppler. Upton was signed by Eppler. Trout is getting paid what he should. This team isn't built well. Resources aren't spent wisely. But we have one Pujols bad contract that takes up 25 mil. Everyone else is a reflection of what Eppler is doing. If he didn't want a bloated payroll then don't sign guys to crap contracts that's strictly on him. So far what he has done with the major league roster I am not impressed with. If his only move this off season is signing Trout and nothing else then that is a horrible off season. Trout's contract will likely go to 40 mil a year which leaves even less in terms of payroll flexibility. Figure it out other teams have. 

"Injuries happen"

Yes they do. And they have the same effect in the negative that adding guys has to the positive. Im all ears to any other team that lost its whole staff in a 2 year span.

You mention the last 3 years. Cool.

Do you realize three years ago, our front 3 for SP was richards (who missed most of the year and should have had TJ surgery then), weaver throwing about 78 mph, and CJ Wilson for 20 million, who didnt play that year?

Skaggs was already on the DL for the year with tommy john. We traded howie with no replacement (dipoto) for heaney, who made TWO starts before going down with TJ.

Thats your whole staff. And none came back a year later to right the ship. 

Our lone arm in the minors was sent packing for simmons (eppler). We could have had newcomb now...but not last two years, and another cozart type at SS during that time.

You literally cant have it both ways. You bitch that we sign guys like cozart, while complaining about the replacement level. YOU CANT FIX EVERY HOLE WITH EXPENSIVE FREE AGENTS. Even if you were willing, the market has to allow you to. We need a C, 3B and RF. So we sign Grandal, machado and harper this year. Whats our payroll then? And if not those 3, who are the literal next step down guys at each position?....

Lastly, saying extending trout without any other major moves this offseason is almost criminally short sighted dude....not extending him this offseason means hes gone in 2 years, with a draft pick. 

You dont want to wait for the youth to arrive, and you dont care to keep trout in 2 years....do you think trading what little farm we have for a degrom and signing a harper moves us past houston right now? Then why burn the future for that, when you can build to be the top team in 2 more years?

You say "figure it out, other teams have". Yes they have...by doing what this team is doing, not what youre suggesting.

[kevinb]

18 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

"Injuries happen"

Yes they do. And they have the same effect in the negative that adding guys has to the positive. Im all ears to any other team that lost its whole staff in a 2 year span.

You mention the last 3 years. Cool.

Do you realize three years ago, our front 3 for SP was richards (who missed most of the year and should have had TJ surgery then), weaver throwing about 78 mph, and CJ Wilson for 20 million, who didnt play that year?

Skaggs was already on the DL for the year with tommy john. We traded howie with no replacement (dipoto) for heaney, who made TWO starts before going down with TJ.

Thats your whole staff. And none came back a year later to right the ship. 

Our lone arm in the minors was sent packing for simmons (eppler). We could have had newcomb now...but not last two years, and another cozart type at SS during that time.

You literally cant have it both ways. You bitch that we sign guys like cozart, while complaining about the replacement level. YOU CANT FIX EVERY HOLE WITH EXPENSIVE FREE AGENTS. Even if you were willing, the market has to allow you to. We need a C, 3B and RF. So we sign Grandal, machado and harper this year. Whats our payroll then? And if not those 3, who are the literal next step down guys at each position?....

Lastly, saying extending trout without any other major moves this offseason is almost criminally short sighted dude....not extending him this offseason means hes gone in 2 years, with a draft pick. 

You dont want to wait for the youth to arrive, and you dont care to keep trout in 2 years....do you think trading what little farm we have for a degrom and signing a harper moves us past houston right now? Then why burn the future for that, when you can build to be the top team in 2 more years?

You say "figure it out, other teams have". Yes they have...by doing what this team is doing, not what youre suggesting.

Never once did I say fix all the Angels problems by signing massive free agents

Yes I think Harper and DeGrom on the Angels would put the Angels in a better position to win and compete with Houston then not.

Yes we have a ton of holes to fill like I have said multiple times, we have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Catcher and whether or not Kole is legit or not a RF and finding an ace.

Never once said I don't care about keeping Trout long term.

What I am suggesting is getting better and trading for or signing better players than what is on this team currently. 

Next year if the Angels sign Trout and that is it this team is a team that will be 20 plus games out of first for the 4th time in 4 years. 

Beautiful

[Troll Daddy]

38 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Never once did I say fix all the Angels problems by signing massive free agents

Yes I think Harper and DeGrom on the Angels would put the Angels in a better position to win and compete with Houston then not.

Yes we have a ton of holes to fill like I have said multiple times, we have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Catcher and whether or not Kole is legit or not a RF and finding an ace.

Never once said I don't care about keeping Trout long term.

What I am suggesting is getting better and trading for or signing better players than what is on this team currently. 

Next year if the Angels sign Trout and that is it this team is a team that will be 20 plus games out of first for the 4th time in 4 years. 

Beautiful

Extending Trout won’t change anything in the next two seasons. 

[totdprods]

I'll present a couple ideas...

The Friggin' Go-For-It Plan // aka F*ck It, Let's Pitch plan:
1) Sign Harper for RF
2) Ship off Adell, Canning, Jones, and Yan for...Jameson Taillon (cheap, controlled, ace) and depthy RP
3) Flip Kole Calhoun, Tyler Skaggs, Taylor Ward, and Cam Bedrosian to ATL for Johan Camargo and Julio Teheran (pending FA)
4) Sign RP David Robertson 
5) Sign vet 1-yr SP/RP (Gio, Happ, CC, etc.)

Line-up: RF Harper, 3B Camargo, CF Trout, DH Ohtani, LF Upton, 1B Pujols, SS Simmons, 2B Cozart, C Arcia/Briceno
Bench: C Arcia/Briceno, UT IF Fletcher, IF Fernandez/Thaiss/Walsh, OF Hermosillo/FA
Rotation: Taillon, Teheran, Heaney, Barria, vet FA signee as your top 6; Shoemaker to pen, with Pena Suarez, Sandoval in AAA.
Bullpen: Robertson, Parker, Shoemaker, Robles, Anderson, Alvarez, Cole, with Buttrey, Jerez, PIT RP return, and eventually Middleton in line as reinforcements. 

Payroll surges a bit (Harper $35m?, Robertson ($11m), Teheran ($12m), and a cheap vet SP ($2-$8m) but there is opportunity to clear it off as the year progresses or next offseason.
The Angels also drop Calhoun ($12m), Skaggs (let's say around $6m), Bedrosian ($2-$3m). 
That's around $43m spent in AAV --- it's over the $30m we have to play with, but Harper qualifies as the mythical 'right player' for luxury tax, and Teheran is a deadline trade candidate - he has an option for '20. Shoemaker could also be dealt for RP help, salary help, or bench help, but I think he's going to rebound next year.

Angels get very cheap long-term solutions at 2B/3B in Camargo (age 25 in 2019, controlled '23, league minimum) and #1 SP in Taillon (age 27, controlled '22, league minimum in 2019) to offset dealing Ward and Canning. Harper, age 26, is an expensive long-term upgrade over Adell, but he's Bryce Harper.

The Angels would still have guys like Thaiss, Marsh, Rengifo, Suarez, Sandoval, Adams, Jackson, Maitan, Knowles, and Soriano as a Top 10.
Pujols, Parker, Shoemaker, Robertson, vet SP, and Cozart would be the only players 31 and older on the roster, none of whom with more than a couple years remaining on contract.

[OhtaniSan]

44 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Ship off Adell, Canning, Jones, and Yan for...Jameson Taillon (cheap, controlled, ace)

Haha you are kidding, right? RIGHT?

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, OhtaniSan said:

Haha you are kidding, right? RIGHT?

Not enough?

[OhtaniSan]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Not enough?

I don't think Tallion is even worth ONE of Adell or Canning. In my eyes, Canning is going to end up being just as good as Tallion if not better and we're only a year or two from that reality. And Adell is on track to be #browntrout

[Hubs]

43 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I'll present a couple ideas...

The Friggin' Go-For-It Plan // aka F*ck It, Let's Pitch plan:
1) Sign Harper for RF
2) Ship off Adell, Canning, Jones, and Yan for...Jameson Taillon (cheap, controlled, ace) and depthy RP
3) Flip Kole Calhoun, Tyler Skaggs, Taylor Ward, and Cam Bedrosian to ATL for Johan Camargo and Julio Teheran (pending FA)
4) Sign RP David Robertson 
5) Sign vet 1-yr SP/RP (Gio, Happ, CC, etc.)

Line-up: RF Harper, 3B Camargo, CF Trout, DH Ohtani, LF Upton, 1B Pujols, SS Simmons, 2B Cozart, C Arcia/Briceno
Bench: C Arcia/Briceno, UT IF Fletcher, IF Fernandez/Thaiss/Walsh, OF Hermosillo/FA
Rotation: Taillon, Teheran, Heaney, Barria, vet FA signee as your top 6; Shoemaker to pen, with Pena Suarez, Sandoval in AAA.
Bullpen: Robertson, Parker, Shoemaker, Robles, Anderson, Alvarez, Cole, with Buttrey, Jerez, PIT RP return, and eventually Middleton in line as reinforcements. 

Payroll surges a bit (Harper $35m?, Robertson ($11m), Teheran ($12m), and a cheap vet SP ($2-$8m) but there is opportunity to clear it off as the year progresses or next offseason.
The Angels also drop Calhoun ($12m), Skaggs (let's say around $6m), Bedrosian ($2-$3m). 
That's around $43m spent in AAV --- it's over the $30m we have to play with, but Harper qualifies as the mythical 'right player' for luxury tax, and Teheran is a deadline trade candidate - he has an option for '20. Shoemaker could also be dealt for RP help, salary help, or bench help, but I think he's going to rebound next year.

Angels get very cheap long-term solutions at 2B/3B in Camargo (age 25 in 2019, controlled '23, league minimum) and #1 SP in Taillon (age 27, controlled '22, league minimum in 2019) to offset dealing Ward and Canning. Harper, age 26, is an expensive long-term upgrade over Adell, but he's Bryce Harper.

The Angels would still have guys like Thaiss, Marsh, Rengifo, Suarez, Sandoval, Adams, Jackson, Maitan, Knowles, and Soriano as a Top 10.
Pujols, Parker, Shoemaker, Robertson, vet SP, and Cozart would be the only players 31 and older on the roster, none of whom with more than a couple years remaining on contract.

Ok, so I like the Friggin-Go-For-It Plan, but...I'm not sold on your acquisitions.

1) Harper does fit here, obviously, but would he want to be the second biggest or third biggest star on a team? I doubt it. And Harper is legit top 5 player in the league, but he'd block Adell.

2) I don't like Adell and Canning for Tailon. Yes I obviously like Taillon, but I think that Canning can be that guy. So if you give up Canning, and Adell, you'd better be getting an improvement. Like I'd deal those two for Chris Sale, Matt Scherzer, or Jacob DeGrom, not for a Taillon. Adell can potentially be Harper or harper Lite.

3) Flip Kole Calhoun for a young 3rd baseman. Ward can't give you that line? Not a significant improvement.

4) Ok, this I like.

5) Ok, this I like.

 

So really, it's not the concept, it's the players. Here's my friggin go for it Plan. I tried to figure out a trade, but it doesn't work because guys we want to get rid of have little if any trade value.

 

1) Sign Manny Machado for 3B.

2) Sign Yasmani Grandal for C.

3) Sign a veteran starter like Happ, Gonzalez.

4) Sign Mark Reynolds.

 

Lineup: Cozart/Fletcher 2B, Trout CF, Machado 3B, Ohtani DH, Upton LF, Calhoun/Adell RF, Pujols/Reynolds 1B, Grandal C, Simmons SS.

 

[totdprods]

13 minutes ago, OhtaniSan said:

I don't think Tallion is even worth ONE of Adell or Canning. In my eyes, Canning is going to end up being just as good as Tallion if not better and we're only a year or two from that reality. And Adell is on track to be #browntrout

Man, I wish I could bump the Gerrit Cole thread right now. I think I will.
So many posters here saying Cole was overrated. He was 26 and his numbers had been 'declining', coming off a pedestrian season with a mid-rotation ERA of 4.26

Then the dude drops 276 strikeouts in 200 innings of 2.88 ERA ball for Astros with a 5 WAR season.

Canning has never been scouted or projected as a dominant, #1 ace-type.
At best, he'd draw some comps to someone like Trevor Bauer or perhaps an Orel Hershiser. Maybe not a true #1, but better than most #2s. That's a best-case scenario. And one that might take a few seasons to realize. Trevor Bauer took several seasons before he established himself this year. To say Canning will be as good as Taillon in a year or two is extremely bold.

So yeah, Canning might be as good as Taillon in a few years. 
You know who is as good as Taillon right now? And costing league-minimum? 
Jameson Taillon.

Adell as #browntrout? Yeah, he might be a stud OF, no doubt. He might sting to let loose. But he might also flop. He also might take longer than expected. He might also be no more than a Justin Upton type (as if that would be a bad thing). I imagine with these moves (keep in mind, I started with signing Harper) we'd also have #actuallymiketrout probably re-signing here for the long-term.

I remember posters saying Yelich was only a little better than Kole Calhoun, and that Simmons was a defensive specialist.

That's my all-in plan.

[OhtaniSan]

2 minutes ago, totdprods said:

You know who is as good as Taillon right now? And costing league-minimum? 
Jameson Taillon.

I definitely agree that Tallion would be a great pick up. I'm just not too keen on the idea of giving up Canning and/or Adell to get him. These are two guys with a lot of upside and I would rather take a chance or them developing into the best they can be. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

@tots, reference you mentioning bumping the cole thread. I was gonna do it there, but ill do it here. I think we need to temper the fantasies about flipping adell or someone for degrom or someone like him. Adell can turn into a beast...but as of yet, he and a package built around him wont get you a degrom. 

I wouldnt do adell and canning for tallion. That said, i havent followed as closely as you probabky have, and perhaps youre right, maybe he turns into a bonafide stud here shortly.

[ten ocho recon scout]

And ill throw myself out there (@tots), i was one of those who didnt think yelich would be a big enough boost over calhoun to warrant trading a bunch of prospects for.