The official (slightly early) off season discussion thread. Let's hear your plan.

[totdprods]

15 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Ok, so I like the Friggin-Go-For-It Plan, but...I'm not sold on your acquisitions.

1) Harper does fit here, obviously, but would he want to be the second biggest or third biggest star on a team? I doubt it. And Harper is legit top 5 player in the league, but he'd block Adell.

What exactly spurs this thought? His attitude? Guy may be douchey, but he might be thrilled at the idea of not being the sole hitter on a team expected to meet crazy high expectations. He'd be playing alongside Trout and Ohtani, all three in their prime.

17 minutes ago, Hubs said:

2) I don't like Adell and Canning for Tailon. Yes I obviously like Taillon, but I think that Canning can be that guy. So if you give up Canning, and Adell, you'd better be getting an improvement. Like I'd deal those two for Chris Sale, Matt Scherzer, or Jacob DeGrom, not for a Taillon. Adell can potentially be Harper or harper Lite.

Taillon was drafted with ace/front-line projections. He's produced very well. Canning is absolutely a step below Taillon. Both are very good. Canning might pitch in the bigs in 2019, but who's to say he'll be an ace? Above-average? Even the best MLB SP usually suck or go through an up-and-down first few years. We might not see Canning realize full potential until 2021+. Taillon's age, cost, and MLB-readiness is appealing to me. Remember, this is an all-in plan, not a 2020+ plan, otherwise, I'm absolutely keeping Adell and Canning. 

19 minutes ago, Hubs said:

3) Flip Kole Calhoun for a young 3rd baseman. Ward can't give you that line? Not a significant improvement.

Johan Camargo, 2018, age 24:
.272/.349/.457/.806, 116 OPS+, 27 doubles, 19 home runs, 51 walks, 108 strikeouts, 3.7 WAR
This was his first full season. He hit .299 in his debut last year. Also a switch hitter. 
Ward's got some work to do to match that line.

Also, the deal is more Skaggs + Ward for Camargo, and Calhoun for Teheran.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

Ok, so I like the Friggin-Go-For-It Plan, but...I'm not sold on your acquisitions.

1) Harper does fit here, obviously, but would he want to be the second biggest or third biggest star on a team? I doubt it. And Harper is legit top 5 player in the league, but he'd block Adell.

2) I don't like Adell and Canning for Tailon. Yes I obviously like Taillon, but I think that Canning can be that guy. So if you give up Canning, and Adell, you'd better be getting an improvement. Like I'd deal those two for Chris Sale, Matt Scherzer, or Jacob DeGrom, not for a Taillon. Adell can potentially be Harper or harper Lite.

3) Flip Kole Calhoun for a young 3rd baseman. Ward can't give you that line? Not a significant improvement.

4) Ok, this I like.

5) Ok, this I like.

 

So really, it's not the concept, it's the players. Here's my friggin go for it Plan. I tried to figure out a trade, but it doesn't work because guys we want to get rid of have little if any trade value.

 

1) Sign Manny Machado for 3B.

2) Sign Yasmani Grandal for C.

3) Sign a veteran starter like Happ, Gonzalez.

4) Sign Mark Reynolds.

 

Lineup: Cozart/Fletcher 2B, Trout CF, Machado 3B, Ohtani DH, Upton LF, Calhoun/Adell RF, Pujols/Reynolds 1B, Grandal C, Simmons SS.

 

Im all about the go for it plans, i think its what the org needs to do... BUT, im not about dumping every chip on the farm to do it. 

#1, I think he would, to Trout.  Anyone else, no

#2 yeah, no im not making those deals, if im shipping off the top guys i better get a Realmuto or Arenado.  With the emphasis on Realmuto as i think there are some possible 3B options not yet known that may pop up.  

#3 Why not keep him as the LH 1B platoon a la Erstad and 4th OF.

#4 fine, works for me

#5 ok, pending cost. 

Side thought, i dont think Harper blocks Adell.  Upton does.  Assuming Adell needs 1-2 more years we deal with that in 2021

Second grouping (should have gone A B C D, just sayin )  

Machado, love it, but dont see it.  There are some dark horses i would keep an eye on, how about Andrus to shift over if he opts out?   Moustakis might be in play again.  Who knows.
Would be fine with Grandal as plan B
No on Reynolds.  I think as far as 1B goes id rather try to get creative.  See if someone like Nelson Cruz can still catch a ball, or Beltre even if he wasnt another year.

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

What exactly spurs this thought? His attitude? Guy may be douchey, but he might be thrilled at the idea of not being the sole hitter on a team expected to meet crazy high expectations. He'd be playing alongside Trout and Ohtani, all three in their prime.

Taillon was drafted with ace/front-line projections. He's produced very well. Canning is absolutely a step below Taillon. Both are very good. Canning might pitch in the bigs in 2019, but who's to say he'll be an ace? Above-average? Even the best MLB SP usually suck or go through an up-and-down first few years. We might not see Canning realize full potential until 2021+. Taillon's age, cost, and MLB-readiness is appealing to me. Remember, this is an all-in plan, not a 2020+ plan, otherwise, I'm absolutely keeping Adell and Canning. 

Johan Camargo, 2018, age 24:
.272/.349/.457/.806, 116 OPS+, 27 doubles, 19 home runs, 51 walks, 108 strikeouts, 3.7 WAR
This was his first full season. He hit .299 in his debut last year. Also a switch hitter. 
Ward's got some work to do to match that line.

Also, the deal is more Skaggs + Ward for Camargo, and Calhoun for Teheran.

Wait, are we honestly saying that Harper was the sole hitter on a team that has/had Zimmerman, Turner, Murphy and Rendon as recent as three months ago?  They had 4 guys over 130 OPS+ in 2017.  This year they had 3 guys over 130 OPS+ and he was third on the team.  

[totdprods]

31 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Wait, are we honestly saying that Harper was the sole hitter on a team that has/had Zimmerman, Turner, Murphy and Rendon as recent as three months ago?  They had 4 guys over 130 OPS+ in 2017.  This year they had 3 guys over 130 OPS+ and he was third on the team.  

It was meant as a reply in the context of him not being happy as the 2nd or 3rd best 'star' on the team, not intended with actual production. I should've said sole superstar, not sole hitter.

[Stradling]

Just now, totdprods said:

It was meant as a reply in the context of him not being happy as the 2nd or 3rd best 'star' on the team, not intended with actual production. I should've said sole superstar, not sole hitter.

I figured I missed something because you are pretty good at this baseball stuff.  

[totdprods]

50 minutes ago, floplag said:

Im all about the go for it plans, i think its what the org needs to do... BUT, im not about dumping every chip on the farm to do it. 

It isn't dumping every chip on the farm - in fact, it's the opposite - it's making use of the two most valuable guys on the farm in order to save the rest of the farm. And Ward, but you're also replacing him with an MLB player in Camargo who is literally 100 days older than him, costs the same, and is already producing above average.

The Top 10 is still, in some order, Jones, Marsh, Thaiss, Rengifo, Suarez, Sandoval, Maitan, Knowles, Adams, Jackson. That's still at worst a middle of the pack farm.

We do not have anyone in the org who projects to having ace-like stuff except Ohtani. Maybe some Latin arms that are years away. Canning has never been projected to be the #1 dominant frontline type, and we shouldn't let some shiny A+/AA starts cloud that projection. He could very well be a #2, he might be an above-average pitcher, but to assume he will reach that ceiling *and* assume he'll be doing it as soon as 2019-2020 is extremely ambitious. 

Taillon, like Cole, has long had those ace projections. Tailon, unlike deGrom or Thor, will cost league minimum next year and comes with much more control. He is about as similar to Canning in terms of ceiling, control, and cost as an MLB pitcher could possibly be. If Canning makes up 30-40% of his value, Adell another 30-40%, and one or two more the other remaining 20-40%, it should be on the table. 

I do believe Adell has a good chance at being a superstar. I think the Trout/Harper comparisons are a bit of a stretch - those are two hitters who will go down among the best 50 in baseball history. But an Upton-esque ceiling is definitely in play. And that's the thing...the Angels could have Harper, Trout, and Upton already here. We have Marsh, Knowles, Adams, and maybe even Jones still here. Any of those guys could above-average OF still. Flanked by Trout and Harper. Hell, there's still a chance Ohtani winds up a part-time or full-time OF depending on how he develops (and no, I'm not saying he stops pitching either). If there was any team that had the luxury to turn a blue chip prospect like Adell into a dire organizational need like a SP, it'd be an Angel club with Trout, Ohtani, and Harper.

[OhtaniSan]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

I do believe Adell has a good chance at being a superstar. I think the Trout/Harper comparisons are a bit of a stretch - those are two hitters who will go down among the best 50 in baseball history. But an Upton-esque ceiling is definitely in play. And that's the thing...the Angels could have Harper, Trout, and Upton already here. We have Marsh, Knowles, Adams, and maybe even Jones still here. Any of those guys could above-average OF still. Flanked by Trout and Harper. Hell, there's still a chance Ohtani winds up a part-time or full-time OF depending on how he develops (and no, I'm not saying he stops pitching either). If there was any team that had the luxury to turn a blue chip prospect like Adell into a dire organizational need like a SP, it'd be an Angel club with Trout, Ohtani, and Harper.

If we signed Harper, I would rather see us trade Upton for a good starting pitcher and hold onto Adell still. Sign Markakis as a stop gap for the next 1-2 years while Adell develops. 

Can you imagine how OP an Adell-Trout-Harper outfield would be? 

[ten ocho recon scout]

20 minutes ago, OhtaniSan said:

If we signed Harper, I would rather see us trade Upton for a good starting pitcher and hold onto Adell still. Sign Markakis as a stop gap for the next 1-2 years while Adell develops. 

Can you imagine how OP an Adell-Trout-Harper outfield would be? 

I keep reading this, but no way are we trading upton.

First, hes super expensive and in his 30s...so whereas a team midseason might want him for a playoff push, i dont think his market would be huge in the offseason.

Two, we just signed him...im not 100 percent sure, but i imagine he has a long list of no trade teams.

[OhtaniSan]

17 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I keep reading this, but no way are we trading upton.

First, hes super expensive and in his 30s...so whereas a team midseason might want him for a playoff push, i dont think his market would be huge in the offseason.

Two, we just signed him...im not 100 percent sure, but i imagine he has a long list of no trade teams.

Good point. I would like to get rid of him tbh. Towards the end of his contract, he will be a second Pujols, not doing much other than eating money and blocking young players like Marsh from having a spot. 

[WeaverFever]

19 minutes ago, OhtaniSan said:

Good point. I would like to get rid of him tbh. Towards the end of his contract, he will be a second Pujols, not doing much other than eating money and blocking young players like Marsh from having a spot. 

I don’t see Upton being in the Angels outfield plans in the future anyways. I would imagine he will be the full time DH after Albert leaves. All things considered. 

[OhtaniSan]

1 minute ago, WeaverFever said:

I don’t see Upton being in the Angels outfield plans in the future anyways. I would imagine he will be the full time DH after Albert leaves. All things considered. 

What about Ohtani? That's why I would like to see him traded while it is still possible. He will eventually not have a spot here with Ohtani taking DH at-bats and Marsh and Adell looking more and more like future contributors. 

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, OhtaniSan said:

If we signed Harper, I would rather see us trade Upton for a good starting pitcher and hold onto Adell still. Sign Markakis as a stop gap for the next 1-2 years while Adell develops. 

Can you imagine how OP an Adell-Trout-Harper outfield would be? 

Upton isn't going to get much in a trade, as @ten ocho recon scout said. It'd be a big contract for a big contract, like an Upton for I dunno, Greinke or Price, at best, or numerous lower-level prospects, maybe a decent prospect or two, but no one is going to hand over a MLB SP that is all three of good, young, and cheap. 

Honestly, I can't imagine how good an outfield of Adell-Trout-Harper would be, because I have no idea if Adell will be Lastings Milledge, Preston Wilson, Justin Upton, Ruben Rivera, Brian Giles, Cameron Maybin, Jermaine Dye...

I do know Justin Upton-Mike Trout-Bryce Harper would be an absolutely insane OF though, and one we'd get to enjoy for at least two years, possibly three or four. 

[Stradling]

Upton just finished his age 30 season, which means the final year of his contract he will be in his age 34 season.  He will be fine for the length of his deal.   If all else fails he can move to first base the final year or two after Albert leaves.  

[Hubs]

A lot hinges on how much Ohtani pitches and how much he DH’s. His value as a hitter with a .900+ OPS is high, a DH like JD Martinez is an equivalent. Or perhaps David Ortiz. You want him as the DH every day with those kind of offensive numbers. 

But if he could also be Max Scherzer in the mound (even just starting once a week), you have a major conundrum. While this season Ohtani didn’t pitch every week, the plan was to hit him Tuesday-Friday and pitch him on Sundays. I think eventually he hits the day before he pitches as long as it’s not a night game before a day game. Or he’ll hit the day after he pitches, assuming a night game after a day game.

But the specifics are irrelevant for now. If he hits 4/6 days that’s 108 games as DH. Leaving just 44 for Pujols and later Upton.

I also think a new manager may choose to deploy his regulars a little less often than Scioscia used to. Trout and Simmons may play 152-159 games and Upton will as well for the next two or three seasons, but everyone else will probably not top 135. Or 5/6 days. If they signed another star, I could also see it as a 152-159 game player.

Scioscia used a lot of lineups. That’s true, but he also liked his veterans. And guys like Fletcher / Cozart / Ward / Calhoun etc. will all likely max out at 135 games. That makes it possible to have 9 quasi-regular starters, not including the Catcher spot.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, OhtaniSan said:

Good point. I would like to get rid of him tbh. Towards the end of his contract, he will be a second Pujols, not doing much other than eating money and blocking young players like Marsh from having a spot. 

He'll dip, of course. He wint be "a second pujols". He'll move to first, or DH (if ohtani goes to 1B) and will end up with average numbers for his age. 

Hes not at all a drag. He may not be the superstar some wanted, and hes not cheap. But the step below guys like him (to save money) have been the problem for years.

You have to go back to 2004/5 circa GA to get numbers like he did this year in left for us...

[Docwaukee]

Not trading Canning or Adell.  Personally think Canning can be as good as Taillon.  If we could get him without giving up either of those two I would do it in a heartbeat.  Injury history is a problem for him though and Billy is looking for durability.  Which to me is the new school way of saying he wants someone who can log some innings.  

 

 

 

[TroutField]

I think we are going to have to use some prospect currency to get a good reliable starter. I think Adell and Canning are off limits but a package of Marsh/Thaiss could net us somebody like Matz or Wheeler from the Mets. Sign Eovaldi to a 3 year deal. Cozart is the second baseman with Fletcher taking over the super utility role. Trade Brennon Lund and Jam Jones for Ryan McMahon to play 1st. Sign Grandal to a 3 year deal. Let Ward play 3rd with Fletcher a plan b if his bat never catches on. Sign Tony Sipp and Robertson. Add Tyson Ross for a 1 year deal.

 

lineup will be 

1. Cozart 2B

2. Trout CF

3. Ohtani DH

4. Upton LF

5. McMahon/Pujols 1B

6. Calhoun 

7. Grandal

8. Simmons

9. Ward

bench:Hermosillo, Fletcher, Arcia, Pujols/McMahon

rotation would be 

1. Matz/Wheeler 

2. Eovaldi 

3. Skaggs

4. Heaney 

5. Ross/Barría 

6. Tropeano

7. Pena/Shoemaker/Bridwell/Meyer/Sandoval/Canning

 

bullpen would include some mix of 

Sipp, Robertson, Buttrey, Anderson, Cole, Robles, Bedrosian, Parker, Jose Alvarez

 

its a solid team without burning too much of the farm, Marsh, Jones, Suarez, etc would hurt to lose but it wouldn’t hurt TOO bad as long as we kept Adell, Rengifo, and Canning. Roster isn’t any more expensive than this years. 

[rottiesworld]

I just don’t have confidence in Bedrosian as he has had many seasons to prove himself and he just doesn’t have it. I would try and trade him and see what we can get and if it helps the club trade home and if it doesn’t hold on to him.

[greginpsca]

I really don't get all of the proposed trades for Met's pitchers. Exactly why would they trade any of them?

[WeatherWonk]

38 minutes ago, greginpsca said:

I really don't get all of the proposed trades for Met's pitchers. Exactly why would they trade any of them?

Teams trade from their perceived surplus. They need other players.

Hey, in the NL East, it doesnt take much to be competitive and win that division.

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 hours ago, WeaverFever said:

I don’t see Upton being in the Angels outfield plans in the future anyways. I would imagine he will be the full time DH after Albert leaves. All things considered. 

Ohtani...

I think upton moves to 1B

[kevinb]

9 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Ohtani...

I think upton moves to 1B

What makes you think Upton is willing to play 1B? 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Just now, Kevinb said:

What makes you think Upton is willing to play 1B? 

If he gets pushed out of the OF , he'll have no choice. Dh is ohtani for 5 more years

[Mark68]

On 9/30/2018 at 12:42 PM, Vegas Halo Fan said:

Do you really want to pay $30-40M per year for the Ervin Santana of outfielders?

Those are not the stats of the Ervin Santana of outfielders.

Those are the stats of someone who is the good Ervin Santana of outfielders...in his off years. 

[Mark68]

20 hours ago, totdprods said:

What exactly spurs this thought? His attitude? Guy may be douchey, but he might be thrilled at the idea of not being the sole hitter on a team expected to meet crazy high expectations. He'd be playing alongside Trout and Ohtani, all three in their prime.

Taillon was drafted with ace/front-line projections. He's produced very well. Canning is absolutely a step below Taillon. Both are very good. Canning might pitch in the bigs in 2019, but who's to say he'll be an ace? Above-average? Even the best MLB SP usually suck or go through an up-and-down first few years. We might not see Canning realize full potential until 2021+. Taillon's age, cost, and MLB-readiness is appealing to me. Remember, this is an all-in plan, not a 2020+ plan, otherwise, I'm absolutely keeping Adell and Canning. 

Johan Camargo, 2018, age 24:
.272/.349/.457/.806, 116 OPS+, 27 doubles, 19 home runs, 51 walks, 108 strikeouts, 3.7 WAR
This was his first full season. He hit .299 in his debut last year. Also a switch hitter. 
Ward's got some work to do to match that line.

Also, the deal is more Skaggs + Ward for Camargo, and Calhoun for Teheran.

And the Braves would let go of Camargo for what reason exactly? Because we'd want them to?