Braves talked to 15 teams about Simmons

[HaloMilliVanilli]

I remember when Brandon Wood, Jeff Mathis, Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana (or something like that) was a severe overpay for Miguel Cabrera.  

[TroutField]

interesting conversation.

it's a little weird for me to see anybody call simmons' contract "team friendly" so categorically.

it could indeed end up being team friendly, but he's making $40 million in the last 3 years of the contract. his bat needs to do a lot of catching up to his glove if his contract is to end up being team friendly.

maybe it will. 2 years into his contract, the braves obviously didn't think so. but **** the national league. i hope he proves them wrong.

13 million a year for a 4 WAR player at the SS position. That is very affordable in today's market, especially when JA Happ got 12 million a year for 3 years. You're right though these money figures thrown around today are absolutely insane

[UndertheHalo]

I remember when Brandon Wood, Jeff Mathis, Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana (or something like that) was a severe overpay for Miguel Cabrera.  

 

 

holy shit QFT.  I'm hopeful SImmons bat comes around, I am definitely not sold on it.  That said, I wouldn't say he's shown nothing at the MLB level with the bat.  Some of you guys have mentioned, that he's seemingly no worse then Aybar and he did hit 17 homeruns a couple years ago.  He's still young,  so theres hope for it.  If the bat comes around even a little bit, we're talking about an elite player overall.  Its too bad that farm is as bad as it is, but it would also be too bad if the Angel passed this one up, hoped for the best with Newcomb and Ellis and had to figure out SS with one of our awesome minor leaguers.  We've already got that going on at a couple positions.  IMO this move wasn't really a choice for someone serious about the team long term.  It wasn't that long ago that we wouldn't move any prospect and we had the "best" prospect group in baseball.  We all know how that turned out.  If we landed Miguel Cabrera we'd have another World Series flag out by the rock pile......probably.

Edited November 28, 2015 by UndertheHalo

[tdawg87]

I miss Toby

 

I'm always here.

[Second Base]

Zach Borenstein.

 

To my credit, I never bought in of Borenstein.  I believe that was his brother, the one that thought we all hated him because he is Jewish. 

[Second Base]

And as far as the Stamets-Simmons post, don't make it into something it isn't.

 

1. I never said Stamets is as good as Simmons, in fact I said the exact opposite.  Literally.  I said Stamets was not as good as Simmons offensively or defensively. 

 

2. How would I describe Stamets?  All glove, no bat.  I mean one of the best defensive SS I have ever seen.  Also, pretty useless with a bat in his hands.  

 

3. How would I describe Simmons.  Lots of glove, and very little bat.  I mean THE BEST defensive SS I have ever seen.  But also, really not all that great with a bat in his hands.  

 

This comparison goes NO FUTHER than me saying we overpaid for the best defensive specialist in probably the last 30 years at least.  Go ahead and vilify me all you want for saying something negative about Andrelton Simmons, the holy grail, but that's the truth.  

 

Aybar played a perfectly fine SS and in most cases, an above average SS.  And with the exception of last year, he could hit the ball too.  And he still likely has three years of good production left in him.  And we could've had the mid or front of the rotation start we need in sean Newcomb.  And we could've used Ellis along with a starting pitcher and another prospect to create a strong package for a very good player. 

 

And as far as me loving prospects, most of you will have room to talk once you actually start paying attention.  I mean Kole Calhoun?  Garrett Richards?  C.J. Cron?  Randal Grichuk?

 

You guys were on my case about those guys too, and as it turns out, the simply majrity of you were dead-wrong, which I still haven't seen most of you eat that crow yet you've so willingly deserved.  In the mean time, I've eating mine over the misses I'm responsible for.  Brandon Wood, Mark Trumbo - I thought he'd be nothing -,  Michael Kohn, Trevor Reckling, I thought Peter Bourjos would be a more complete player than he is...and Im sure there's a couple more that I'm forgetting. 

 

Either way you look at it, my track record in terms of prospects is ok.  But go ahead and accuse me of the rosy colored glasses when I've still been right more often than the people that are hating.  

 

Here's a little more fuel for your fire.  Kyle Kubitza is going to have a career as good as Daniel Murphy.  Chad Hinshaw is going to be one of the better 4th OF's in baseball.  Jett Bandy, Greyson Long and David Fletcher are better than their being given credit for, Victor Alcantara, Roberto Baldoquin, Sherman Johnson and Julio Garcia, really aren't that good, Alex Yarbrough may not be done yet.

 

And here's a lay up, the Angels farm system as currently constructed, is probably the weakest I've ever seen it, though I haven't been paying attention any longer than  years now. 

[UndertheHalo]

And as far as the Stamets-Simmons post, don't make it into something it isn't.

 

1. I never said Stamets is as good as Simmons, in fact I said the exact opposite.  Literally.  I said Stamets was not as good as Simmons offensively or defensively. 

 

2. How would I describe Stamets?  All glove, no bat.  I mean one of the best defensive SS I have ever seen.  Also, pretty useless with a bat in his hands.  

 

3. How would I describe Simmons.  Lots of glove, and very little bat.  I mean THE BEST defensive SS I have ever seen.  But also, really not all that great with a bat in his hands.  

 

This comparison goes NO FUTHER than me saying we overpaid for the best defensive specialist in probably the last 30 years at least.  Go ahead and vilify me all you want for saying something negative about Andrelton Simmons, the holy grail, but that's the truth.  

 

Aybar played a perfectly fine SS and in most cases, an above average SS.  And with the exception of last year, he could hit the ball too.  And he still likely has three years of good production left in him.  And we could've had the mid or front of the rotation start we need in sean Newcomb.  And we could've used Ellis along with a starting pitcher and another prospect to create a strong package for a very good player. 

 

And as far as me loving prospects, most of you will have room to talk once you actually start paying attention.  I mean Kole Calhoun?  Garrett Richards?  C.J. Cron?  Randal Grichuk?

 

You guys were on my case about those guys too, and as it turns out, the simply majrity of you were dead-wrong, which I still haven't seen most of you eat that crow yet you've so willingly deserved.  In the mean time, I've eating mine over the misses I'm responsible for.  Brandon Wood, Mark Trumbo - I thought he'd be nothing -,  Michael Kohn, Trevor Reckling, I thought Peter Bourjos would be a more complete player than he is...and Im sure there's a couple more that I'm forgetting. 

 

Either way you look at it, my track record in terms of prospects is ok.  But go ahead and accuse me of the rosy colored glasses when I've still been right more often than the people that are hating.  

 

Here's a little more fuel for your fire.  Kyle Kubitza is going to have a career as good as Daniel Murphy.  Chad Hinshaw is going to be one of the better 4th OF's in baseball.  Jett Bandy, Greyson Long and David Fletcher are better than their being given credit for, Victor Alcantara, Roberto Baldoquin, Sherman Johnson and Julio Garcia, really aren't that good, Alex Yarbrough may not be done yet.

 

And here's a lay up, the Angels farm system as currently constructed, is probably the weakest I've ever seen it, though I haven't been paying attention any longer than  years now. 

 

even though I think you're excessively down on Simmons bat vs. Aybar. I appreciate your input man.  Lord knows I could never keep up with all the prospects like you do.  I actually really enjoy hearing what you have to say.  For whatever its worth, thanks.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Zach Borenstein.

damn! Blast from the past, wonder what happened to his brother. That guy went to war here, alling people anti-semites and everything

Personally, im still on the side of not liking the trade. I would have preffered rolling the dice on aybar and trying to replace him with a lesser shortstop and if we were going to empty the farm, focusing on a more pressing need. Thats not to say i dont like having simmons on this team, i think he'll be a lot of fun to watch. But it was the type of move you make when we had the 2000s farm, not our current one.

[tdawg87]

And as far as the Stamets-Simmons post, don't make it into something it isn't.

 

1. I never said Stamets is as good as Simmons, in fact I said the exact opposite.  Literally.  I said Stamets was not as good as Simmons offensively or defensively. 

 

2. How would I describe Stamets?  All glove, no bat.  I mean one of the best defensive SS I have ever seen.  Also, pretty useless with a bat in his hands.  

 

3. How would I describe Simmons.  Lots of glove, and very little bat.  I mean THE BEST defensive SS I have ever seen.  But also, really not all that great with a bat in his hands.  

 

This comparison goes NO FUTHER than me saying we overpaid for the best defensive specialist in probably the last 30 years at least.  Go ahead and vilify me all you want for saying something negative about Andrelton Simmons, the holy grail, but that's the truth.  

 

Aybar played a perfectly fine SS and in most cases, an above average SS.  And with the exception of last year, he could hit the ball too.  And he still likely has three years of good production left in him.  And we could've had the mid or front of the rotation start we need in sean Newcomb.  And we could've used Ellis along with a starting pitcher and another prospect to create a strong package for a very good player. 

 

And as far as me loving prospects, most of you will have room to talk once you actually start paying attention.  I mean Kole Calhoun?  Garrett Richards?  C.J. Cron?  Randal Grichuk?

 

You guys were on my case about those guys too, and as it turns out, the simply majrity of you were dead-wrong, which I still haven't seen most of you eat that crow yet you've so willingly deserved.  In the mean time, I've eating mine over the misses I'm responsible for.  Brandon Wood, Mark Trumbo - I thought he'd be nothing -,  Michael Kohn, Trevor Reckling, I thought Peter Bourjos would be a more complete player than he is...and Im sure there's a couple more that I'm forgetting. 

 

Either way you look at it, my track record in terms of prospects is ok.  But go ahead and accuse me of the rosy colored glasses when I've still been right more often than the people that are hating.  

 

Here's a little more fuel for your fire.  Kyle Kubitza is going to have a career as good as Daniel Murphy.  Chad Hinshaw is going to be one of the better 4th OF's in baseball.  Jett Bandy, Greyson Long and David Fletcher are better than their being given credit for, Victor Alcantara, Roberto Baldoquin, Sherman Johnson and Julio Garcia, really aren't that good, Alex Yarbrough may not be done yet.

 

And here's a lay up, the Angels farm system as currently constructed, is probably the weakest I've ever seen it, though I haven't been paying attention any longer than  years now. 

 

The problem lies with even bringing them up in the same sentence at all. Stamets is an awful, awful hitter as a 24 year old in AA ball. Simmons has been a pretty poor hitter, but he's still been better than Stamets, and he's done it in the majors. What would Stamets' .654 OPS translate to in the majors? 

 

It doesn't matter how good Stamets may be with the glove. He is nowhere near the hitter Simmons is and that's saying a lot, considering Simmons isn't good with the bat either. He's also not as good defensively.

 

So why even bring him up at all? There is no comparison.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I remember when Brandon Wood, Jeff Mathis, Howie Kendrick and Ervin Santana (or something like that) was a severe overpay for Miguel Cabrera.

very good point. But unless i remember incorrectly, the hang up was that the marlins wouldnt let us negotiate with cabrera prior (he was an FA after that year). We caved on that, then the marlins changed their mind and went with detroits offer.

[tdawg87]

The problem lies with even bringing them up in the same sentence at all. Stamets is an awful, awful hitter as a 24 year old in AA ball. Simmons has been a pretty poor hitter, but he's still been better than Stamets, and he's done it in the majors. What would Stamets' .654 OPS translate to in the majors? 

 

It doesn't matter how good Stamets may be with the glove. He is nowhere near the hitter Simmons is and that's saying a lot, considering Simmons isn't good with the bat either. He's also not as good defensively.

 

So why even bring him up at all? There is no comparison.

 

BTW Scotty I still trust your analysis. You definitely have a rep for overvaluing prospects, but you know a hell of a lot more about the farm than I do. And probably most other users here.

[Stradling]

BTW Scotty I still trust your analysis. You definitely have a rep for overvaluing prospects, but you know a hell of a lot more about the farm than I do. And probably most other users here.

I agree with this. I don't know if this makes sense but I trust his analysis of players but not his value of those players as major leaguers.

[Brandon]

very good point. But unless i remember incorrectly, the hang up was that the marlins wouldnt let us negotiate with cabrera prior (he was an FA after that year). We caved on that, then the marlins changed their mind and went with detroits offer.

 

The hang up was the Angels didn't give into the Marlins demands of adding Reggie Willits and walked

[Troll Daddy]

I'm wrong for thinking Simmons is a good hitter? I love the fact he's a contact hitter much like Aybar but with a little more pop. I wouldn't be surprised to see his numbers go up against AL pitchers. Simmons has skills and imo hasn't reached his full potential as a hitter.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Troll Daddy

[ten ocho recon scout]

The hang up was the Angels didn't give into the Marlins demands of adding Reggie Willits and walked

then the angels made the right decision. Reggie was past his prime but it was great to see him hit number 500

Wait...sh*t

[eligrba]

I think there should be an Angelswin challenge regarding prospects.  Each person identifies their top 5 Angel prospects and provides an analysis (with major league projections) for each supporting their valuation.  Sortof like a fantasy baseball type challenge.

[Angelsjunky]

Kinda underselling him a bit there AJ. He's averaged 4.3 WAR for his career.

 

I'm using Fangraphs, which has him averaging 3.2 WAR over the last three years (his only full seasons). Baseball Reference has that crazy 7 WAR year due to what I believe would be a major league historialy best 5.4 dWAR (!) in 2012. Regardless, I see him as a 3-4 WAR player - maybe better if he improves with the bat.

 

interesting conversation.

 

it's a little weird for me to see anybody call simmons' contract "team friendly" so categorically.

 

it could indeed end up being team friendly, but he's making $40 million in the last 3 years of the contract. his bat needs to do a lot of catching up to his glove if his contract is to end up being team friendly. 

 

maybe it will.  2 years into his contract, the braves obviously didn't think so. but **** the national league. i hope he proves them wrong. 

 

$40M for three years, or $13M+ a year is a steal....if Simmons maintains his current level.

[Angelsjunky]

I think there should be an Angelswin challenge regarding prospects.  Each person identifies their top 5 Angel prospects and provides an analysis (with major league projections) for each supporting their valuation.  Sortof like a fantasy baseball type challenge.

 

Let's wait a couple years until the Angels actually have prospects.

[Second Base]

I view Simmons upside as a hitter to that of Alberto Callaspo.  But then again, if you take Callaspo's offensive performance and project it with Simmons glove, you've got something really special.  

 

In my view, Simmons already had his career year when he hit 17 HR's. Similar to Callaspo's career year when he batted .300 with 60 extra base hits. But Callaspo still had one year with the Angels when he managed to hit .288 with a very good OBP. In the end though, he's .265 career hitter without discernible speed or power.  

 

Simmons is probably going to be a consistent .260/.320 hitter with very little power or SB.  But ahead of him, I still think he's going to have that one year with the Angels when he hits .290, probably in 2017 or 2018.  But for the most part, we already know what he is with the bat.  

 

Of course, there are some who believe he's entering his physical prime as a 26 year old, and seeing as we have him through age 30, we'll get his best years.  And to that, I say you're probably right.  I believe Simmons will be better with the Angels than he typically was with the Braves. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

I still don't get the trade when other positions are in dire need. 

 

I do. We got younger and better defensively in the same deal, and we acquired probably the best defensive player in the game. I'm sure that Eppler wasn't looking for a shortstop first and foremost, but when he was approached with a deal for a player like that, it was hard not to jump.

 

Besides, it's still November. We aren't done shaping the roster yet.

[Blarg]

Last season Dipoto traded Kendrick for a pitcher and everyone thought it was a good move because he filled a need for a cost controlled starter for a guy in his walk year. It turned out to be a long term asset but may have cost the Angels the division or wildcard. Giavotella was not a significant contributor to defense or offense.

Eppler traded Aybar and a top minor league pitcher because Aybar is in a walk year and we got the best defensive SS with a long term cost controlled contract. Newcomb would not have made an impact this season while Simmons certainly will improve the defense.

I think both trades work for long term needs but in Eppler's case it does not negatively affect the coming season.

[ABC]

Last season Dipoto traded Kendrick for a pitcher and everyone thought it was a good move because he filled a need for a cost controlled starter for a guy in his walk year. It turned out to be a long term asset but may have cost the Angels the division or wildcard. Giavotella was not a significant contributor to defense or offense.

Eppler traded Aybar and a top minor league pitcher because Aybar is in a walk year and we got the best defensive SS with a long term cost controlled contract. Newcomb would not have made an impact this season while Simmons certainly will improve the defense.

I think both trades work for long term needs but in Eppler's case it does not negatively affect the coming season.

 

It is still an unknown because the massive holes are yet to be filled and Newcomb/Ellis may be needed help in locking down positions where the Angels are weak. I'm hoping Eppler figures it out.

[Second Base]

I think there should be an Angelswin challenge regarding prospects. Each person identifies their top 5 Angel prospects and provides an analysis (with major league projections) for each supporting their valuation. Sortof like a fantasy baseball type challenge.

That would be AWESOME! I'm releasing our top 30 next we land I know there's going to be a ton

[NrM]

Last season Dipoto traded Kendrick for a pitcher and everyone thought it was a good move because he filled a need for a cost controlled starter for a guy in his walk year. It turned out to be a long term asset but may have cost the Angels the division or wildcard. Giavotella was not a significant contributor to defense or offense.

Eppler traded Aybar and a top minor league pitcher because Aybar is in a walk year and we got the best defensive SS with a long term cost controlled contract. Newcomb would not have made an impact this season while Simmons certainly will improve the defense.

I think both trades work for long term needs but in Eppler's case it does not negatively affect the coming season.

 

I think Newcomb would've been pitching for the Angels by the allstar break, or around the time Weaver and CJ both inevitably get hurt.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Poozy

[ettin]

I don't want to join the pile up on Scotty, but I do disagree that it was a "severe" overpay. The Angels sent one excellent and one good prospect for a 26 year old 3 WAR player. That seems about right. Maybe this trade looks bad in a few years, but for now the Angels got an amazing defensive player.

In terms of current late 2015 trade value it was a fairly equitable trade in terms of surplus value if you believe WAR overly accounts for defense. If you believe WAR accounts for defense properly then the Angels came out ahead in terms of current surplus value.

The Angels front office obviously decided that acquiring an elite defensive SS was more important than waiting for Newcomb's and Ellis' eventual development into whatever they may or may not turn out to be.

In fact if you pull up a list of the Top 10 defensive SS's using FanGraphs WAR only the last three were truly available in trade (Andrus, Segura, and Galvis) and they are nowhere near close to Simmons. This really was a one time opportunity to pick up a long term controllable replacement for Aybar and no matter what you believe the Angels were going to have to address their long term SS situation this offseason in my personal opinion.

The final thing that everyone seems to be overlooking is the fact that Eppler and the front office have likely had extensive discussions with other teams and are perhaps saving some of our other trade assets for other moves to be made. This trade may have fit into the puzzle that is our offseason wheelings and dealings.

Let's wait until the offseason is over to fully evaluate what happened. We may come to realize that Newcomb and Ellis were only really wanted by the Braves and this was the right fit for our plans to win in 2016.