Braves talked to 15 teams about Simmons

[Inside Pitch]

Our fanbase clearly doesn't hate this deal. I do, it is a monstrosity of a mistake that I wish we could undo. But the overall feeling is somewhere between 'slight dislike' and 'slight support'.

The more I think about it, the more I think Eppler got absolutely schooled. Like the Wells deal there are aspects of this that seem entirely unnecessary. Most importantly, why did we give them Aybar? Were they really going to turn down Newcomb and Ellis for Simmons? I really struggle to believe that. Had we not given up Aybar in that deal, we could have kept him and played him at 2B to give us one of the best defensive infields ever. We could have tried him at 3B. We could have swapped up to improve the rotation (a similar deal with Orlando Cabrera once netted us a pretty solid pitcher in Jon Garland). We could have dealt him to help re-stock our incredibly weak farm system. Don't get me wrong, Newcomb and Ellis for Simmons still would have been a crappy deal. But we could have made it so much less crappy by not throwing in Aybar, which I can't accept the Braves insisted on.

I think Ellis is being overrated by Angels fans..   The guy has upside... even some projection, but he would have a hard time cracking the top ten of better farm systems.   It's not like Newcomb was number 1 and Ellis was 1B....   The gap between Newcomb and Ellis was pretty significant.   With Ellis the hype is because he's 6'4" and 220 -- so he fits the whole "this is what they look like" mantra -- there is a very solid chance he adds to his stuff.  Numbers wise, Ellis is difficult to project because he's got a limited track record, he's had flashes but he's also mixed in some "meh"...   

 

I don't think the price for Simmons was excessive given how much teams currently value run prevention, I think the price seems magnified because of the sorry state of the farm system.  

[eaterfan]

Not only did the Braves value Aybar but the Angels freed up some salary. Had the Angels kept him they would have been paying an additional $8-9 million for a back up shortstop. 

 

Everyone who hates this deal is complaining that we had greater needs than SS. Can you imagine how much they would flip their lids if we were spending that on a back up SS. Could Aybar have been flipped later for something? Probably, but I don't think Aybar would have a ton of value on his own at this point. Additionally teams know the Angels have to unload him so the Halos have very little leverage.

[Stradling]

Your leverage is the talent of who you are trading. Aybar if kept wouldn't have been a back up SS, he would have been a starting 2nd or 3rd baseman.

[totdprods]

Your leverage is the talent of who you are trading. Aybar if kept wouldn't have been a back up SS, he would have been a starting 2nd or 3rd baseman.

That actually would have been interesting. He could have been a good stopgap at either position, buying a year for the Kubitza/Cowart folks to develop.

Overall I think the deal signifies Eppler is looking at a 3-5 year window and competing over that span, moreso than trying to win it all in '16. I think he's trying to build a team that's mostly controlled through 2020/21 so he doesn't have to rely on the farm to stay competitive. Simmons fit that better than Aybar, and that includes whatever Aybar would have brought back, such as a QO draft pick or whatever a trade return would have been.

A QO draft pick would be unlikely to contribute to the timeframe above, and Aybar may have not brought back the near-future impact prospects we'd be seeking. He'd likely bring back younger wildcard prospects with upside (not a sure thing to contribute) or a comparable vet player (in regards to money and years) which would be a type of player felt he could probably acquire via FA this offseason or via trade through one of the starters.

[TroutField]

I think Ellis is being overrated by Angels fans.. The guy has upside... even some projection, but he would have a hard time cracking the top ten of better farm systems. It's not like Newcomb was number 1 and Ellis was 1B.... The gap between Newcomb and Ellis was pretty significant. With Ellis the hype is because he's 6'4" and 220 -- so he fits the whole "this is what they look like" mantra -- there is a very solid chance he adds to his stuff. Numbers wise, Ellis is difficult to project because he's got a limited track record, he's had flashes but he's also mixed in some "meh"...

I don't think the price for Simmons was excessive given how much teams currently value run prevention, I think the price seems magnified because of the sorry state of the farm system.

This is a really good post! Agree with all of it, if we had any semblance of a farm system you wouldn't be hearing about it being a huge overpay and we could focus a little more on the guys we got back. Let's enjoy Simmons and monitor how Newcomb and Ellis pan out.

[eaterfan]

Your leverage is the talent of who you are trading. Aybar if kept wouldn't have been a back up SS, he would have been a starting 2nd or 3rd baseman.

If the plan is to move Aybar to second bade long term then I guess it makes sense. But the transition isn't as easy as just waking to the the other side of the base. It would take a lot of practice and reduce Aybar's FA value. Not our concern as fans, but probably a big concern for EA and his agent.

I'm also not sure Aybar hits enough to play 3rd despite the value his defense would bring to the position.

[totdprods]

If the plan is to move Aybar to second bade long term then I guess it makes sense. But the transition isn't as easy as just waking to the the other side of the base. It would take a lot of practice and reduce Aybar's FA value. Not our concern as fans, but probably a big concern for EA and his agent.

I'm also not sure Aybar hits enough to play 3rd despite the value his defense would bring to the position.

 

I can see Aybar doing that after his next contract expires, once he's around 36 or so, but yeah, he's set to be a top SS free agent next season. So long as he doesn't fall apart this year, he'll get a good 3-4 year deal next offseason. 

[Troll Daddy]

I've never been more excited about a trade in a long time. As a fan who goes to a lot of games ... I'm looking forward to watching one of the best players in the game. This guy is a gamer who wants to win. I think he'll love playing with the best player in the game.

[Second Base]

Actually, when you hear the Braves GM talk about it and some of their personnel internally discuss it, Sean Newcomb was the crux of that deal. They legitimately believed they were acquiring a staff ace, the type of pitcher where there are only one or two each year coming out of the draft and they're usually going in the first three picks.

From the sound of it, it really does seem like Sean Newcomb for Andrelton Simmons straight up may have done the trick. But I think Eppler was very eager to make his mark and acquire what he believed to be an elite major leaguer for cheap.

Another fun fact, the Braves and Angels literally didn't negotiate this deal. The Braves called around, Eppler wanted to beat the crowd and offered a package that was so far over the top the Braves immediately accepted.

Simmons is a good SS, so I can't be mad we acquired him. But I also won't pretend he's a rare commodity when he isn't and that the deal we offered wasn't an overpay. I mean if it wasn't, why then did no negotiation take place? Why are we not hearing any other teams being considered? Why have we not heard any prospects mentioned?

It's because Eppler struck early before that market could clearly develop and overpaid.

[Stradling]

I don't doubt you heard that Scotty but I doubt it's accurate. I've never heard of a trade where there wasn't a negotiation, it truly makes no sense to not negotiate. Hell, if you were the Braves and that was your first offer wouldn't you try to get the "eager" new GM to sweeten the pot a little more. This doesn't pass the smell test.

[TroutField]

Actually, when you hear the Braves GM talk about it and some of their personnel internally discuss it, Sean Newcomb was the crux of that deal. They legitimately believed they were acquiring a staff ace, the type of pitcher where there are only one or two each year coming out of the draft and they're usually going in the first three picks.

From the sound of it, it really does seem like Sean Newcomb for Andrelton Simmons straight up may have done the trick. But I think Eppler was very eager to make his mark and acquire what he believed to be an elite major leaguer for cheap.

Another fun fact, the Braves and Angels literally didn't negotiate this deal. The Braves called around, Eppler wanted to beat the crowd and offered a package that was so far over the top the Braves immediately accepted.

Simmons is a good SS, so I can't be mad we acquired him. But I also won't pretend he's a rare commodity when he isn't and that the deal we offered wasn't an overpay. I mean if it wasn't, why then did no negotiation take place? Why are we not hearing any other teams being considered? Why have we not heard any prospects mentioned?

It's because Eppler struck early before that market could clearly develop and overpaid.

In your opinion....

Don't say things that you can't back up and act like they are facts. I'm sure Eppler didn't willingly just give away Aybar, cash, and Ellis (our best prospect after Newcomb) if it wasn't necessary. What you're saying isn't even logical to a fair weather baseball fan.

Edited December 1, 2015 by AngelintheTroutfield

[Adam]

I know for a fact the braves would've dealt Simmons straight up for Newcomb

[Stradling]

I know for a fact the braves would've dealt Simmons straight up for Newcomb

Obvs

[ettin]

Actually, when you hear the Braves GM talk about it and some of their personnel internally discuss it, Sean Newcomb was the crux of that deal. They legitimately believed they were acquiring a staff ace, the type of pitcher where there are only one or two each year coming out of the draft and they're usually going in the first three picks.

From the sound of it, it really does seem like Sean Newcomb for Andrelton Simmons straight up may have done the trick. But I think Eppler was very eager to make his mark and acquire what he believed to be an elite major leaguer for cheap.

Another fun fact, the Braves and Angels literally didn't negotiate this deal. The Braves called around, Eppler wanted to beat the crowd and offered a package that was so far over the top the Braves immediately accepted.

Simmons is a good SS, so I can't be mad we acquired him. But I also won't pretend he's a rare commodity when he isn't and that the deal we offered wasn't an overpay. I mean if it wasn't, why then did no negotiation take place? Why are we not hearing any other teams being considered? Why have we not heard any prospects mentioned?

It's because Eppler struck early before that market could clearly develop and overpaid.

 

In Scotty's defense, Garrett Wilson, the former head of MWAH, now works in the Braves front office so I imagine that is his source of information but as an amateur journalist I'd try to be careful of adding extra sprinkles on top.

[tomsred]

I know for a fact the braves would've dealt Simmons straight up for Newcomb

 

Then they are fools, Don Newcombe is past his prime.

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by tomsred

[beatlesrule]

From the sound of it, it really does seem like Sean Newcomb for Andrelton Simmons straight up may have done the trick.

[Second Base]

In Scotty's defense, Garrett Wilson, the former head of MWAH, now works in the Braves front office so I imagine that is his source of information but as an amateur journalist I'd try to be careful of adding extra sprinkles on top.

Believe it or not, that's not who I spoke with. I've only spoken to Garrett once since he left MWAH and it had nothing to do with baseball.

And as for the rest of you, feel free to call me a liar and doubt all you wish. I know you will regardless.