Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

The hitters other than Ohtani and Trout, and to some extent Rengifo looked terrible under Nevin, but under Maddon, guys like Wade were hitting well.

Ward blames the injury, ok, that makes sense, but to say it's all injury related is to ignore all other possible factors to enforce your point of view.

And I grasp your point just fine. I don't agree. The numbers are clear. 

Please don't insult my intelligence. We can agree to disagree.

Saying you're not being logical isn't "insulting your intelligence."  It's saying that, for whatever reason, you're not looking at the data rationally. 

As for Wade, he was hitting .208/.263/.274 on the day Maddon was fired.  What was his final slash line when the Angels let him go, you might ask?  Sure, it was .212/.272/.272.  What does that mean?  He hit .244/.296/.268 after Maddon was fired.  So he was objectively terrible throughout the year, but he was, in fact, a "better" hitter under Nevin, if you really want to look at it like that.

I'm more than happy to look at any "other possible factors" that you present, as long as they're rational.  You just haven't done so, at least that I've seen.

[HeavenlyHalos]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

I am not dense. They won. The point you're making is dumb. 

The stats say that was a bad decision, but Maddon says it shook up his team. It seemed to have worked. I don't know if that's the cause or not and you don't know that they won in spite. So please stop insulting my intelligence. 

We just disagree. 

This is quite possibly the worst take I've ever seen on this site. Nobody and I do mean nobody outside of yourself thinks it was a good move. Incredibly moronic hill to die on. Even Trout is wondering wtf is wrong with Joe

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

Remember that old unwritten rule that what happens behind closed doors on a baseball team stays behind closed doors?  

Joe wrote a book.  

"blah blah something something... sacred" -- Joe Maddon.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't think this is so much about Perry and Phill. These guys have not earned the benefit of the doubt yet. The issue at hand is Joe and his whacky antics, and bad attitude.

Yeah, ok, then we're having different arguments. The team was less successful under Perry and Phil versus Joe. The numbers prove that. 

[jsnpritchett]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Ouch. That's a big burn.

I don't think I'm making unintelligible gibberish, I just don't agree with the Perry-stans and Nevin-Stans.

How anyone could look at this season and say, you know what, Nevin and Perry did a good job, I'll never understand.

 

Are there really an "Nevin-stans" here?  I'm certainly not.  I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that I'm a neutral at best on him and that I completely understand why the Angels are bringing him back for 2023.  I don't think it's likely that he's any kind of long-term solution, but in a transitional season, it's a logical decision.  I know you'll say otherwise, but if you take a step back and look at the big picture, it makes sense.

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, HeavenlyHalos said:

This is quite possibly the worst take I've ever seen on this site. Nobody and I do mean nobody outside of yourself thinks it was a good move. Incredibly moronic hill to die on. Even Trout is wondering wtf is wrong with Joe

 

 

Again, please stop with the insults.

I'm not insulting you. You're calling me dumb, dense and moronic. 

I was like WTF? when it happened, but you know I don't have 42 years of managerial experience, and you know what? It seems to have worked. 

 

"I thought by walking Seager, it would avoid the big blow," Maddon told reporters. "And just to stir up the group, quite frankly. It's not something you normally do. I thought by going up there and doing something like that, the team might respond to something like that."

The Angels trailed 3-2 when Seager stepped to the plate. His walk brought in the fourth run, and the Rangers added two more in the inning to grab a 6-2 lead. Whether that represents a success is hard to quantify, but it became a moot point as L.A. took the lead with a five-run fifth and went on to secure a 9-6 victory.

"Whatever it did, it sparked us," Angels pitcher Austin Warren, who was charged with the walk to Seager, said. "Because we put up five runs the next inning. So it all worked out."

[Hubs]

Seems to me they responded.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Yeah, ok, then we're having different arguments. The team was less successful under Perry and Phil versus Joe. The numbers prove that. 

We are evaluating Joe Maddon as a manager aren't we? The contributions of everyone else aren't strictly relevant, unless your opinion is that Perry and Phil were incompetent and it was Joe's job to mold the organization in the manner he saw fit, in order to protect it from the other guys...

[failos]

9 minutes ago, Hubs said:

It seems to have worked. 

Get real. How is an egregious decision like that going to turn a team’s fortunes around? Ever hear of the word “coincidence” ?

Edited October 7, 2022 by failos

[HeavenlyHalos]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Again, please stop with the insults.

I'm not insulting you. You're calling me dumb, dense and moronic. 

I was like WTF? when it happened, but you know I don't have 42 years of managerial experience, and you know what? It seems to have worked. 

 

"I thought by walking Seager, it would avoid the big blow," Maddon told reporters. "And just to stir up the group, quite frankly. It's not something you normally do. I thought by going up there and doing something like that, the team might respond to something like that."

The Angels trailed 3-2 when Seager stepped to the plate. His walk brought in the fourth run, and the Rangers added two more in the inning to grab a 6-2 lead. Whether that represents a success is hard to quantify, but it became a moot point as L.A. took the lead with a five-run fifth and went on to secure a 9-6 victory.

"Whatever it did, it sparked us," Angels pitcher Austin Warren, who was charged with the walk to Seager, said. "Because we put up five runs the next inning. So it all worked out."

I said your stance was moronic, which it is. It was and will remain one of the worst managerial decisions of all time. You wish to defend that, okay. I will continue to call it out for what it is: Incredibly stupid.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

Are there really an "Nevin-stans" here?  I'm certainly not.  I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that I'm a neutral at best on him and that I completely understand why the Angels are bringing him back for 2023.  I don't think it's likely that he's any kind of long-term solution, but in a transitional season, it's a logical decision.  I know you'll say otherwise, but if you take a step back and look at the big picture, it makes sense.

Ok, you're not one of the Nevin stans, but you're certainly anti-Maddon.

My big problems, are 1) I don't see the point in rushing to do it, 2) nor do I see the point in a one year deal. If he's your guy, give him a contract. Or better yet, explore your options, see who's out there and then if you still like the guy who went 15 games under .500 (69.6 win pace) then he'll still be there, waiting for the gig.

 

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, failos said:

Get real. How is a egregious decision like that going to turn a team’s fortunes around? Ever hear of the word “coincidence” ?

So it's a coincidence when the numbers support my argument, or its injuries, or its a fluke.

When the numbers support your arguments, I don't call them the same. 

[failos]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

So it's a coincidence when the numbers support my argument, or its injuries, or its a fluke.

When the numbers support your arguments, I don't call them the same. 

The only metric to measure the impact of IBB’ing a batter with the bases loaded is that the other team gets a run. Anything that happens after that is coincidence. The team didn’t magically win because of that decision, and you have zero objective proof to support that claim.

Edited October 7, 2022 by failos

[failos]

Mike Trout adjusting his cup resulted in the team winning early on.

[Hubs]

4 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

We are evaluating Joe Maddon as a manager aren't we? The contributions of everyone else aren't strictly relevant, unless your opinion is that Perry and Phil were incompetent and it was Joe's job to mold the organization in the manner he saw fit, in order to protect it from the other guys...

We're discussing the culture wars that led to Maddon's firing. That includes Perry and Tamin then. 

Nevin is being used as a comparison. 

The team hit worse, won less, and pitched better after Maddon left. So you blame Maddon for this team being bad, but when he got fired, they still could've turned it around. Nevin instead won 16 and lost 31 In the next two months (through 7-31). Yes Trout was out for half of that.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, failos said:

The only metric to measure the impact of IBB’ing a batter with the bases loaded is that the other team gets a run. Anything that happens after that is coincidence. The team didn’t magically win because of that decision, and you have zero objective proof to support that claim.

Works both ways, because you have zero proof that it didn't work.

Anyway, I don't necessarily support that decision, but I'm using it as an example of why the metrics and statistics don't always work. And I'm a heavily pro stat guy, you've been here long enough to read my posts and articles.

 

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Yeah, ok, then we're having different arguments. The team was less successful under Perry and Phil versus Joe. The numbers prove that. 

And the reality also shows that one benefitted from healthy stars than the other. 

[failos]

Just now, Hubs said:

Works both ways, because you have zero proof that it didn't work.

Anyway, I don't necessarily support that decision, but I'm using it as an example of why the metrics and statistics don't always work. And I'm a heavily pro stat guy, you've been here long enough to read my posts and articles.

 

Ok, so then you agree you have no proof. Gotcha.

[Dtwncbad]

Just now, Hubs said:

Works both ways, because you have zero proof that it didn't work.

Anyway, I don't necessarily support that decision, but I'm using it as an example of why the metrics and statistics don't always work. And I'm a heavily pro stat guy, you've been here long enough to read my posts and articles.

 

If it “worked” (they won after walking in a run), then maybe the Angels should start every ninth inning by walking the first four batters.

[jsnpritchett]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Ok, you're not one of the Nevin stans, but you're certainly anti-Maddon.

My big problems, are 1) I don't see the point in rushing to do it, 2) nor do I see the point in a one year deal. If he's your guy, give him a contract. Or better yet, explore your options, see who's out there and then if you still like the guy who went 15 games under .500 (69.6 win pace) then he'll still be there, waiting for the gig.

 

Again, we've been over this numerous times.  You simply refuse to even consider the most likely and logical reasons that Nevin was hired for next year (i.e., that it provides the most flexibility for the new owners and leaves the team with one less long-term commitment).  It is genuinely confusing to me as to why you can't see it. 

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

And the reality also shows that one benefitted from healthy stars than the other. 

Well, last year, without Rendon and Trout, they scored 100 more runs. So... maybe injuries aren't as big of a factor as some believe?

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Well, last year, without Rendon and Trout, they scored 100 more runs. So... maybe injuries aren't as big of a factor as some believe?

So now they should start every 9th inning with four walks AND bench Trout and Rendon to score more runs.

Please continue.  This is getting good.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

Again, we've been over this numerous times.  You simply refuse to even consider the most likely and logical reasons that Nevin was hired for next year (i.e., that it provides the most flexibility for the new owners and leaves the team with one less long-term commitment).  It is genuinely confusing to me as to why you can't see it. 

I understand the reason. I just don't buy the company line. 

I guarantee you that the new owners and Arte would be much happier if when they complete the purchase next fall, that the team had just won a World Series. Even if it meant Scioscia had a 3 year contract or whatever.

And had signed two or three big dollar players. Winning is the ultimate goal. Not having a tighter financial ship.

 

 

[HeavenlyHalos]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Works both ways, because you have zero proof that it didn't work.

Anyway, I don't necessarily support that decision, but I'm using it as an example of why the metrics and statistics don't always work. And I'm a heavily pro stat guy, you've been here long enough to read my posts and articles.

 

Zero proof? It cost them multiple runs that inning. The fact the offense came back in the game is independent of that fact. Yes. Fact.

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Well, last year, without Rendon and Trout, they scored 100 more runs. So... maybe injuries aren't as big of a factor as some believe?

I'm now convinced that this is a bit or some sort of long-term con/performance art.  Right?  That's the only logical reason for your posting patterns at this point...

In 2021, Walsh hit at an All-Star level before declining this year and being hurt.  And the people who filled in for Rendon and Trout in 2021 were bad, but not AS bad as the total wipeouts the Angels ran out there this year.

Also, offense was down overall this year.  In 2021, the average AL team scored 4.6 runs per game.  In 2022, the average AL team scored 4.22 runs per game.  Context matters.