Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

This isn’t how the game has been in over a decade. 

The eliminate the manager and fire the GMs.

This goes back to what I have been saying.  Advanced metrics are very valuable.   I believe it's very helpful to find talented players.  However recently it's turned into a religion.   

It's turning baseball into a "computer simulation "

Edited October 7, 2022 by stormngt

[bruin5]

I was becoming a fan of Minasian before because of the way he’s really improved the farm in the last couple of years. This takes it to a whole different level.

I am sure that one of the reason he was hired was to replicated the Braves approach to all things baseball. That seems like a good thing to me. The responsibility for overall team and organizational performance falls on him, not Maddon. 

Maddon’s problem is that he thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room and that he was hired for his coaching instincts. Kudos to Minasian for having to balls to can his ass. 

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, stormngt said:

The eliminate the manager and fire the GMs.

This goes back to what I have been saying.  Advanced metrics are very valuable.   I believe it's very helpful to find talented players.  However recently it's turned into a religion.   

It's turning baseball into a "computer simulation "

It isn’t turning baseball into a computer simulation. It’s still played by humans. There’s a place for a manager and a place for a GM in todays game. The manager needs to do his job and work with the GM. You can trust a manager but that trust only goes so far. If you go off script then you are held accountable. Joe got a long leash. 

[Docwaukee]

Remember that old unwritten rule that what happens behind closed doors on a baseball team stays behind closed doors?  

Joe wrote a book.  

[Dtwncbad]

59 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

Remember that old unwritten rule that what happens behind closed doors on a baseball team stays behind closed doors?  

Joe wrote a book.  

 

[ukyah]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

Or Hubs is good at his job and doesn’t need to be micromanaged.  But since Hubs thinks Maddon was good at his job (he wasn’t) he’s projecting his situation on Maddon’s. 
There are micromanagers that micromanage everything because that’s the only way they feel comfortable.  Those guys suck.  Then there are people who can micromanage in certain situations when it’s necessary. Which one is Perry?  

my opinion. i don't agree with the notion that perry and the FO are micromanagers. i think maddon was unhappy in how successful mlb franchises are being run and resented the angels trying to implement those processes under his watch.

what we've got here is a failure to communicate. some men you just can't reach. so you get what we had  here. well, he wants it. he gets it! and i don't like it anymore than you.

[ukyah]

2 hours ago, Second Base said:

So then why was Joe still the manager? You either trust him or you don't. If you don't trust him, get rid of him, but don't call down to the dugout to try and override him. 

I'm glad they fired him. Not because I think he was bad, because I think managers are useless and if they didn't trust him to implement their vision, then they needed someone else.

Evidently, Nevin is fine with the dugout dialogue. At the end of the day, the 2022 Angels were a crappy team, no matter who called themselves the manager.

 

they did fire him. it would have been out of line for perry to not give maddon a chance to work with the FO, don't you think? i think that would have shown a distinct lack of character on perry's part. at some point if an employee isn't on board with his boss, then the employee is going to have to go. 

[Hubs]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

Jesus. He called the dugout once at least that’s what Maddon is complaining about. But you paint it like he’s constantly over reaching. 

I doubt this is the only thing that led to his firing, but I think Montgomery on the bench and the RP Matrix (which worked to prevent injuries, but certainly didn't translate into wins), I think he's trying to be the big dog without the managerial experience.

You don't like Maddon, that's fine, but after reading this article, I have serious reservations about the future with Minasian. 

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, Docwaukee said:

Remember that old unwritten rule that what happens behind closed doors on a baseball team stays behind closed doors?  

Joe wrote a book.  

To be fair, the GM used to stay out of the dugout and locker room too.

Billy Beane in moneyball seemed to be the first that was involved in running the team and even then he didn't tell him what lineups, he just traded Pena to play Hatteberg at first. Gave him no other option. 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I doubt this is the only thing that led to his firing, but I think Montgomery on the bench and the RP Matrix (which worked to prevent injuries, but certainly didn't translate into wins), I think he's trying to be the big dog without the managerial experience.

You don't like Maddon, that's fine, but after reading this article, I have serious reservations about the future with Minasian. 

Well if Maddon followed through on the information given then Montgomery isn’t in the dugout. He obviously wasn’t. Oh and it worked with having him in the dugout as it relates to the shift. 

[HeavenlyHalos]

24 minutes ago, Hubs said:

To be fair, the GM used to stay out of the dugout and locker room too.

Billy Beane in moneyball seemed to be the first that was involved in running the team and even then he didn't tell him what lineups, he just traded Pena to play Hatteberg at first. Gave him no other option. 

To be fair, this is 2022 and the front office has a huge part of most organizations. Maddon is a dinosaur and a terrible manager who deserved to be fired. Let him walk in runs for another team

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, Second Base said:

So then why was Joe still the manager? You either trust him or you don't. If you don't trust him, get rid of him, but don't call down to the dugout to try and override him. 

I'm glad they fired him. Not because I think he was bad, because I think managers are useless and if they didn't trust him to implement their vision, then they needed someone else.

Evidently, Nevin is fine with the dugout dialogue. At the end of the day, the 2022 Angels were a crappy team, no matter who called themselves the manager.

I doubt Perry has ever called down to the dugout to talk to Phill 

[Hubs]

16 minutes ago, HeavenlyHalos said:

To be fair, this is 2022 and the front office has a huge part of most organizations. Maddon is a dinosaur and a terrible manager who deserved to be fired. Let him walk in runs for another team

Disagree. The problems this team has were not Maddon's. This 22 squad reminded me a lot of the 2019 squad run by Ausmus and Eppler. Poor preparation and overwhelming the players with info. Neither team was remotely successful with the GM driven approach. 

Maddon took this team to 4.5 runs a game offensively, but the team scored 3.5 runs a game under Nevin. 

Pitching wise the team was better which lends me to believe the advance analytics are better with pitchers than hitters. The hitters, especially the young ones, looked overmatched and under performed. 

You're blaming injuries, likely and that was a factor, but not the only factor.

 

 

[HeavenlyHalos]

4 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Disagree. The problems this team has were not Maddon's. This 22 squad reminded me a lot of the 2019 squad run by Ausmus and Eppler. Poor preparation and overwhelming the players with info. Neither team was remotely successful with the GM driven approach. 

Maddon took this team to 4.5 runs a game offensively, but the team scored 3.5 runs a game under Nevin. 

Pitching wise the team was better which lends me to believe the advance analytics are better with pitchers than hitters. The hitters, especially the young ones, looked overmatched and under performed. 

You're blaming injuries, likely and that was a factor, but not the only factor.

 

 

Right another factor was Maddon is terrible. He walked in a run trailing in the 4th inning, one of the worst managerial decisions of all time. There is a reason he won't get another job and his issue with the front office is a major one. It's about analytics more than "feel." You may not like that but it's what every successful franchise has been doing. Perry gets that, Maddon doesn't.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

It isn’t turning baseball into a computer simulation. It’s still played by humans. There’s a place for a manager and a place for a GM in todays game. The manager needs to do his job and work with the GM. You can trust a manager but that trust only goes so far. If you go off script then you are held accountable. Joe got a long leash. 

I agree with everything you  in this post.  However the GM needs to trust the manager as well.  That means not calling I'm a middle of a game and directing the manager to remove a player.  That is a slap in face of any manager.

GM cam say before the game to remove players in blowouts.  He can svold the manager if he doesn't.  Hell he can fire him.  But not in the middle of a game.

[jsnpritchett]

3 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Disagree. The problems this team has were not Maddon's. This 22 squad reminded me a lot of the 2019 squad run by Ausmus and Eppler. Poor preparation and overwhelming the players with info. Neither team was remotely successful with the GM driven approach. 

Maddon took this team to 4.5 runs a game offensively, but the team scored 3.5 runs a game under Nevin. 

Pitching wise the team was better which lends me to believe the advance analytics are better with pitchers than hitters. The hitters, especially the young ones, looked overmatched and under performed. 

You're blaming injuries, likely and that was a factor, but not the only factor.

 

Do you truly believe that something Maddon was doing "took" the Angels to 4.5 runs a game versus something Nevin did that dropped them to 3.5?  As has been mentioned numerous times, Trout and Rendon were both mostly healthy during the time Maddon was here this year--plus, Ward was still hitting out of his mind before he ran into the wall.  The players who started getting a ton of playing time after the injuries were beyond awful--and even though Ward mostly played through his injuries, it was abundantly clear they were still affecting him until the last month or so.  If you don't truly believe those things accounted for the vast majority of the discrepancy in runs, then you're just not being logical.  We have had this discussion here numerous times and for whatever reason, you're still simply unable to grasp it.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, HeavenlyHalos said:

Right another factor was Maddon is terrible. He walked in a run trailing in the 4th inning, one of the worst managerial decisions of all time. There is a reason he won't get another job and his issue with the front office is a major one. It's about analytics more than "feel." You may not like that but it's what every successful franchise has been doing. Perry gets that, Maddon doesn't.

Didn't they win that game? And then go on 18-8 run? 

[failos]

Just now, Hubs said:

Didn't they win that game? And then go on 18-8 run? 

You’re turning into CaliAngel and Angels 1961

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

Do you truly believe that something Maddon was doing "took" the Angels to 4.5 runs a game versus something Nevin did that dropped them to 3.5?  As has been mentioned numerous times, Trout and Rendon were both mostly healthy during the time Maddon was here this year--plus, Ward was still hitting out of his mind before he ran into the wall.  The players who started getting a ton of playing time after the injuries were beyond awful--and even though Ward mostly played through his injuries, it was abundantly clear they were still affecting him until the last month or so.  If you don't truly believe those things accounted for the vast majority of the discrepancy in runs, then you're just not being logical.  We have had this discussion here numerous times and for whatever reason, you're still simply unable to grasp it.

The hitters other than Ohtani and Trout, and to some extent Rengifo looked terrible under Nevin, but under Maddon, guys like Wade were hitting well.

Ward blames the injury, ok, that makes sense, but to say it's all injury related is to ignore all other possible factors to enforce your point of view.

And I grasp your point just fine. I don't agree. The numbers are clear. 

Please don't insult my intelligence. We can agree to disagree.

[HeavenlyHalos]

3 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Didn't they win that game? And then go on 18-8 run? 

They won despite that terrible move. You can't possibly be this dense.

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, failos said:

You’re turning into CaliAngel and Angels 1961

Ouch. That's a big burn.

I don't think I'm making unintelligible gibberish, I just don't agree with the Perry-stans and Nevin-Stans.

How anyone could look at this season and say, you know what, Nevin and Perry did a good job, I'll never understand.

 

[Hubs]

Just now, HeavenlyHalos said:

They won despite that terrible move. You can't possibly be this dense.

I am not dense. They won. The point you're making is dumb. 

The stats say that was a bad decision, but Maddon says it shook up his team. It seemed to have worked. I don't know if that's the cause or not and you don't know that they won in spite. So please stop insulting my intelligence. 

We just disagree. 

[failos]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

Ouch. That's a big burn.

I don't think I'm making unintelligible gibberish, I just don't agree with the Perry-stans and Nevin-Stans.

How anyone could look at this season and say, you know what, Nevin and Perry did a good job, I'll never understand.

 

Very true on the first point, but you’re quickly headed towards that direction. Hopefully you don’t turn into one of those clowns. Your argument is lacking though.

[Hubs]

I'll let you all know what Maddon thinks, when I get his book next week.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Ouch. That's a big burn.

I don't think I'm making unintelligible gibberish, I just don't agree with the Perry-stans and Nevin-Stans.

How anyone could look at this season and say, you know what, Nevin and Perry did a good job, I'll never understand.

 

I don't think this is so much about Perry and Phill. These guys have not earned the benefit of the doubt yet. The issue at hand is Joe and his whacky antics, and bad attitude.