Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Just Sayin]

Did the Angels interview ANY other Managerial candidates before dumping another year in Nevin’s lap?

One would think they would.  And doing so certainly would be “in the best interest of the organization” ....at least those were the words Minasian used when he fired Maddon.  
 

He said “a different voice” was in order? 
 

He was pretty convinced he had a playoff team when Maddon was fired.  I think he said “we still have 106 games left to prove it” and that “talk is cheap”

Okay.  The “different voice” fell upon deaf ears.  46-60 in the last 106 games that they had to “prove it”

Are you sure Minasian wanted a “different voice”?  Or was he making sure that his voice is the ONLY voice that is heard?
 

No further interviews.  Doesn’t matter if you land a top-tier guy.  Brandon Hyde is certainly not top tier. He has the lowest payroll in the league.  In the toughest division in the AL.  Was picked to win around 60 games this season. Sold at the trade deadline.  And won 83 games.

What we need is a manager who can get whatever players we have to EXCEED the expectations.  Every f****** season!

That may not translate into a playoff appearance or a World Championship but let’s not put the cart in front of the horse here.

Minasian/Nevin have failed and will continue to fail.  Their job is to get the team to EXCEED whatever expectations there are. They are not capable of doing this.  The “last 106 games” proved it. 
 

There was no improvement in the 5-9 slots in the batting order whatsoever.  Doesn’t matter if they already sucked.  The managers job is to make them suck less or not suck at all. 
 

As bad as Adell is ....He hit .250 last year.  He’s trending down....smaller sample size yeah but the numbers don’t lie.

Many of you may say “it’s Minasian’s team” and applaud his overreach. 
 

No.  It isn’t his team.  It’s Moreno’s team up until he sells it.  The team is under Minasians watch.  Big difference. 

He has been a failure as a steward of the Orgnanization.  Stoneman was the only guy who handled it.  
 

Get your manager the horses and let the manager manage them.  What a concept.

Whatever Minasian/Nevin are selling....nobody’s buying, regardless of how they posture to the media. 

 

 

[Dtwncbad]

By the way, why exactly did Bruce Bochy’s name come up?  I thought he rode off into the sunset calling it a career?

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Just Sayin said:

Did the Angels interview ANY other Managerial candidates before dumping another year in Nevin’s lap?

One would think they would.  And doing so certainly would be “in the best interest of the organization” ....at least those were the words Minasian used when he fired Maddon.  
 

He said “a different voice” was in order? 
 

He was pretty convinced he had a playoff team when Maddon was fired.  I think he said “we still have 106 games left to prove it” and that “talk is cheap”

Okay.  The “different voice” fell upon deaf ears.  46-60 in the last 106 games that they had to “prove it”

Are you sure Minasian wanted a “different voice”?  Or was he making sure that his voice is the ONLY voice that is heard?
 

No further interviews.  Doesn’t matter if you land a top-tier guy.  Brandon Hyde is certainly not top tier. He has the lowest payroll in the league.  In the toughest division in the AL.  Was picked to win around 60 games this season. Sold at the trade deadline.  And won 83 games.

What we need is a manager who can get whatever players we have to EXCEED the expectations.  Every f****** season!

That may not translate into a playoff appearance or a World Championship but let’s not put the cart in front of the horse here.

Minasian/Nevin have failed and will continue to fail.  Their job is to get the team to EXCEED whatever expectations there are. They are not capable of doing this.  The “last 106 games” proved it. 
 

There was no improvement in the 5-9 slots in the batting order whatsoever.  Doesn’t matter if they already sucked.  The managers job is to make them suck less or not suck at all. 
 

As bad as Adell is ....He hit .250 last year.  He’s trending down....smaller sample size yeah but the numbers don’t lie.

Many of you may say “it’s Minasian’s team” and applaud his overreach. 
 

No.  It isn’t his team.  It’s Moreno’s team up until he sells it.  The team is under Minasians watch.  Big difference. 

He has been a failure as a steward of the Orgnanization.  Stoneman was the only guy who handled it.  
 

Get your manager the horses and let the manager manage them.  What a concept.

Whatever Minasian/Nevin are selling....nobody’s buying, regardless of how they posture to the media. 

 

 

Just Sayin’ a lot of ramble.  If Hubs might be Lifetime, are you Joe Biden?

It reads as half yelling and half whispering for effect.  We know who does that. . . 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Inside Pitch]

30 minutes ago, Hubs said:

But surely their lack of performance was injuries, and Rengifo's positive performance was Maddon leaving.

Is that your position or are you attempting to speak for others?   

I do believe Walsh's injury played into his poor season, mostly because it would take a complete and utter moron to think a guy not being able to feel/grip a bat isn't being impacted in some way. 

As far as Stassi goes, I just think he had a bad season.  His walk rate is nearly at his career high, his K rate is at his career average pretty much.  His zone contact was 0.4% below last year -- so he's not missing more.  His chase percentage was almost 10% below what it was last year, so he's been more selective...  The biggest difference this year and last is his BABIP is nearly 90 points lower.  Looking at his sprint speed I doubt going from 26.4 fps to 25.6 fps can be cause for such a drop so... given his career numbers, it's likely he was lucky in that area last year and unlucky this year -- either way.  Shitty year. 

I'd love to hear your theory for how Maddon impacted his BABIP so much if indeed you think it's his presence that made the difference.  Then I can point out how how his 2021 season in Anaheim and his 2018 season in Houston were within 5% of each other using wRC, 105 to 100. 

[Just Sayin]

14 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Just Sayin’ a lot of ramble.  If Hubs might be Lifetime, are you Joe Biden?

It reads as half yelling and half whispering for effect.  We know who does that. . . 

I’m 62 years old chief.  Never voted once in my life.  Not in the Nevin or the Maddon camp.  I’m not an either-or guy.  I would like to see the team get the needle pointing in the right direction.  Have you noticed everything is trending down for this ball club the last 8-9 years?  I’d like to see the team exceed expectations at least once before your boy Biden finishes his second term Don’t care who it is who is pulling the strings from the dugout (if that’s even allowed anymore ) I have no dog in the race.  You got a dog in the race?  Oh Wait....I think I know the answer to that.  

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Just Sayin said:

I’m 62 years old chief.  Never voted once in my life.  Not in the Nevin or the Maddon camp.  I’m not an either-or guy.  I would like to see the team get the needle pointing in the right direction.  Have you noticed everything is trending down for this ball club the last 8-9 years?  I’d like to see the team exceed expectations at least once before your boy Biden finishes his second term Don’t care who it is who is pulling the strings from the dugout (if that’s even allowed anymore ) I have no dog in the race.  You got a dog in the race?  Oh Wait....I think I know the answer to that.  

What dog do I have in the race?

I honestly don’t really care who manages this team right now.  I am more concerned with having the right roster.  When the team has the right roster, then I might care who is making out the lineup.

[Docwaukee]

The only reason I can think of as to why a GM would call the dugout with in game instructions is if the manager had a habit of ignoring certain directives or information.  

It's Perry's job to do what he thinks is in the best interest of the org which includes the health and well being of the players.  

People understand why analytics have become a huge part of the game right?

Because all that stuff that scouts and players and managers and coaches and gm's thought they knew about how to win baseball games because they were smart or had all this experience was just wrong.  Or at the very least, they were missing some very important stuff.  

[Docwaukee]

6 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I do believe Walsh's injury played into his poor season, mostly because it would take a complete and utter moron to think a guy not being able to feel/grip a bat isn't being impacted in some way. 

and the fact that he was actually ok for the first three months of the season.  

[Hubs]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Is that your position or are you attempting to speak for others?   

I do believe Walsh's injury played into his poor season, mostly because it would take a complete and utter moron to think a guy not being able to feel/grip a bat isn't being impacted in some way. 

As far as Stassi goes, I just think he had a bad season.  His walk rate is nearly at his career high, his K rate is at his career average pretty much.  His zone contact was 0.4% below last year -- so he's not missing more.  His chase percentage was almost 10% below what it was last year, so he's been more selective...  The biggest difference this year and last is his BABIP is nearly 90 points lower.  Looking at his sprint speed I doubt going from 26.4 fps to 25.6 fps can be cause for such a drop so... given his career numbers, it's likely he was lucky in that area last year and unlucky this year -- either way.  Shitty year. 

I'd love to hear your theory for how Maddon impacted his BABIP so much if indeed you think it's his presence that made the difference.  Then I can point out how how his 2021 season in Anaheim and his 2018 season in Houston were within 5% of each other using wRC, 105 to 100. 

I am wondering if the front office was dictating that they take more pitches, it seems like the Angels as a whole, not just Stassi had a lot more counts that were in the pitchers favor and a lot of strike three looking.

Obviously strikeouts won't affect BABIP, but taking more pitches and striking out more as a result, would result in less runs.

My problem with the Walsh analogy is how do they not realize this is happening and put him on the IL?

[Inside Pitch]

36 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I am wondering if the front office was dictating that they take more pitches, it seems like the Angels as a whole, not just Stassi had a lot more counts that were in the pitchers favor and a lot of strike three looking.

Obviously strikeouts won't affect BABIP, but taking more pitches and striking out more as a result, would result in less runs.

My problem with the Walsh analogy is how do they not realize this is happening and put him on the IL?

LOL -- why do you continue to speculate when you can look this up?

You say Stassi had more counts that favored pitchers right?  We can look this up.   Stassi had 282 at bats in 21, 333 in 22.  He had 31, 0-2 counts and 52, 1-2 counts in 21 .vs 23 and 57 in 2022.   The facts don't support your opinion in Stassi's case.

And what's with the word salad about BABIP.   Babip is fully dependent on putting balls in play -- HRs don't count and being more selective doesn't magically make balls fall in more or less.  The contact rates pretty much answer any questions one might have about that.  A better argument, one that isn't based on someone just trying to push a narrative that the team's directive lead to poor results would be to point to what he did when he did make contact -- exit velocities/launch angles and to look for how changes there might impact those results.  Well, his exit velocity was off by a little over 1MPH year to year and his angle off by 1%.

So, is it your belief that the reason his batted ball outcomes were so drastically different was because the team was asking him to be more selective?

You're grasping at straws.

[Just Sayin]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

What dog do I have in the race?

I honestly don’t really care who manages this team right now.  I am more concerned with having the right roster.  When the team has the right roster, then I might care who is making out the lineup.

I don’t care either.  I’ve expressed my views.  I don’t consider wanting the team to exceed expectations or getting the needle moving in the right direction to be ideas that anyone would disagree with.  
 

And If they did I don’t see any reason to turn it into a personal attack.  Perhaps I am mistaken in taking the “Biden” comment as such.  
 

If I am mistaken, then simply allow me to “ramble” as you have worded it.  Or maybe you can edit my posts for me before I push “submit reply” if that makes you feel better.   I’m not here to pick fights.  I don’t like to go there.  But if you insist, you’ll see I’m more than capable of defending my dugout.

[Dtwncbad]

10 minutes ago, Just Sayin said:

I don’t care either.  I’ve expressed my views.  I don’t consider wanting the team to exceed expectations or getting the needle moving in the right direction to be ideas that anyone would disagree with.  
 

And If they did I don’t see any reason to turn it into a personal attack.  Perhaps I am mistaken in taking the “Biden” comment as such.  
 

If I am mistaken, then simply allow me to “ramble” as you have worded it.  Or maybe you can edit my posts for me before I push “submit reply” if that makes you feel better.   I’m not here to pick fights.  I don’t like to go there.  But if you insist, you’ll see I’m more than capable of defending my dugout.

The ramble Biden comment was just a joke.  It is entertaining to imagine Joe reading your post from a teleprompter yelling then whispering.  Not at your expense.  Just messing around.

[Erstad Grit]

I'm pretty sure losing 14 in a row was more of the problem

[Just Sayin]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

The ramble Biden comment was just a joke.  It is entertaining to imagine Joe reading your post from a teleprompter yelling then whispering.  Not at your expense.  Just messing around.

Well....even though I have never voted ....I AM his speech writer in case you were wondering (this too is a joke) 

It’s all good man thanks for the explanation

And for those of you who are a little “weary” from my ramblings ....I apologize  ....it is what it is.  
 

Many of my friends and ALL of my family members like to tell others “don’t get him started!”

[Hubs]

20 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

LOL -- why do you continue to speculate when you can look this up?

You say Stassi had more counts that favored pitchers right?  We can look this up.   Stassi had 282 at bats in 21, 333 in 22.  He had 31, 0-2 counts and 52, 1-2 counts in 21 .vs 23 and 57 in 2022.   The facts don't support your opinion in Stassi's case.

And what's with the word salad about BABIP.   Babip is fully dependent on putting balls in play -- HRs don't count being more selective doesn't magically make balls fall in more or less.  The contact rates pretty much answer any questions one might have about that.  A better argument, one that isn't based on someone just trying to push a narrative that the team's directive lead to poor results would be to point to what he did when he did make contact -- exit velocities/launch angles and to look for how changes there might impact those results.  Well, his exit velocity was off by a little over 1MPH year to year and his angle off by 1%.

So, is it your belief that the reason his batted ball outcomes were so drastically different was because the team was asking him to be more selective?

You're grasping at straws.

cuz you'll look them up for me?

I actually enjoy your posts. 

[ukyah]

3 hours ago, Hubs said:

To be fair, the GM used to stay out of the dugout and locker room too.

Billy Beane in moneyball seemed to be the first that was involved in running the team and even then he didn't tell him what lineups, he just traded Pena to play Hatteberg at first. Gave him no other option. 

that's kinda not true. in the context of the movie he directed him several times to which howe declined to cooperate. my understanding is that this is moot anyways becuase art howe was significantly more on board with beane than is portrayed in the movie, but i don't know personally.

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

I like Hubs.

We all do.  But his opinion on this is bad.

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I haven’t read all this but I’m just going to drop in to point out that I’ve heard from people on both sides (uniform and non uniform) that there are (more successful) teams in which there is much more front office “influence” on managerial decisions than there is with the Angels. 

So would that mean in your opinion Perry isn’t a micromanager?

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Lou said:

He never said that

[T.G.]

It's going to be a long off season.

[AngelsLakersFan]

11 hours ago, Hubs said:

We're discussing the culture wars that led to Maddon's firing. That includes Perry and Tamin then. 

Nevin is being used as a comparison. 

The team hit worse, won less, and pitched better after Maddon left. So you blame Maddon for this team being bad, but when he got fired, they still could've turned it around. Nevin instead won 16 and lost 31 In the next two months (through 7-31). Yes Trout was out for half of that.

I don’t really blame Maddon for much of anything. I think he was a bad manager and everything he’s stated in the press since has made me believe letting him go was the right move.

What we should do with Nevin or Minasian going forward is a separate issue for me.

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don’t really blame Maddon for much of anything. I think he was a bad manager and everything he’s stated in the press since has made me believe letting him go was the right move.

What we should do with Nevin or Minasian going forward is a separate issue for me.

But have you considered absolving Maddon of all blame because Perry once called the dugout to look after the health of an oft injured super star in a blowout game?  

[Jay]

20 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would add that “heavy” is probably in the eyes of the manager. My impression of the Dodgers and Rays are that the FO influences a ton of stuff, but Roberts and Cash don’t complain about it because they accept that what they’re saying is probably right. And when there are disputes, they handle them in a collaborative way.

Just another example of how dysfunctional the Angels are.

[Inside Pitch]

49 minutes ago, Jay said:

Just another example of how dysfunctional the Angels are.

Looks like the cut out the dysfunction and he's busy trying to paint himself as the good guy.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

I've missed the last few pages of this.

Again, I'm neutral on Maddon. But the Mohawk thing is still funny. It would be a perfect mickey hatcher story when you think about it.

And I still want to know, after the dust settled.... did he shave it all off, or grow the rest out?