Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Hubs]

I guess I don't remember @Lifetime being that bad. Surely @Angels 1961 and SLM182 were worse. 

Why did he get banned again?

 

[Hubs]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No Bruce Bochy doesn’t pick the Royals.  Bruce Bochy, if he wants to manage again, would take a top job with a premium team or wait til next year.

I'm bookmarking this, so if they hire him after 2023, I can say I was right that Nevin was a waste of time. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

I haven’t read all this but I’m just going to drop in to point out that I’ve heard from people on both sides (uniform and non uniform) that there are (more successful) teams in which there is much more front office “influence” on managerial decisions than there is with the Angels. 

[failos]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I guess I don't remember @Lifetime being that bad.

sus

[Dtwncbad]

10 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I'm bookmarking this, so if they hire him after 2023, I can say I was right that Nevin was a waste of time. 

You lost me.  If the Angels signed Bochy after 2023 it would mean Bochy wanted to wait and see who the new ownership/front office was before he committed.  It would not specifically mean Nevin was a waste of time.  Instead, it would mean Nevin was needed to get through 2023.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[failos]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I haven’t read all this but I’m just going to drop in to point out that I’ve heard from people on both sides (uniform and non uniform) that there are (more successful) teams in which there is much more front office “influence” on managerial decisions than there is with the Angels. 

I'd wager you'd probably stop posting here if you had read this entire thread. And yeah--there's no doubt other teams' FOs have more involvement in managerial decisions.

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I haven’t read all this but I’m just going to drop in to point out that I’ve heard from people on both sides (uniform and non uniform) that there are (more successful) teams in which there is much more front office “influence” on managerial decisions than there is with the Angels. 

I think this is an interesting piece of information.  I would say anyone should be cautious to automatically draw a correlation between front office influence on maverick decisions and winning.

It would sure seem to me that you can have a great culture and a great team that wins with or without a heavy front office influence on managerial decisions.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Wade hit .304 / .347/ .370 / .717 in April, Struggled in May, played less in June under Nevin, was supplanted by Rengifo. Ok, so he's not a good example, but I guess I just remembered him looking good and stealing bases in April...

Wade's hot April was built on a .378 BaBip, he hit He hit .156/.217/.234 from May through Joe getting fired.  Pointing at one set of numbers is just cherry picking.

His full season numbers this season pretty much mirror his career stats..  .218/.272/.272 .vs .214/.291/.307..  The dude is just bad and nobody should get any credit or blame for his performance -- but we can point at Maddon for trying to use him as an everyday player despite a track record of being quite shitty.

That's actually my beef with how he was used -- dude was fine as a late inning speed guy, specialist type.  Maddon tried to use him as an everyday player -- something he isn't.

 

 

[Hubs]

5 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think this is an interesting piece of information.  I would say anyone should be cautious to automatically draw a correlation between front office influence on maverick decisions and winning.

It would sure seem to me that you can have a great culture and a great team that wins with or without a heavy front office influence on managerial decisions.

The Dodgers are clearly one. But one wonders if Friedman's game time decisions are helping or hurting the team, we just simply don't know. They have a lot more talent in their organization, and talent seems to always find a way.

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think this is an interesting piece of information.  I would say anyone should be cautious to automatically draw a correlation between front office influence on maverick decisions and winning.

It would sure seem to me that you can have a great culture and a great team that wins with or without a heavy front office influence on managerial decisions.

I would add that “heavy” is probably in the eyes of the manager. My impression of the Dodgers and Rays are that the FO influences a ton of stuff, but Roberts and Cash don’t complain about it because they accept that what they’re saying is probably right. And when there are disputes, they handle them in a collaborative way.

[Inside Pitch]

23 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

Maddon was fired on June 7, but I think it was before the game that day, right?  I think the numbers I posted earlier for Wade might have been correct.  The larger point is that he was a terrible hitter regardless of who was managing and it's a good thing that a) he played less under Nevin, and b) was eventually released.

I just looked up the date he was fired -- I didn't put a lot of effort into it and honestly I wish I had not since you had covered it very well.  And yes -- the dude is just not a good hitter -- I just made another post saying just that so, you've scooped me twice today.  

One day I will learn to read through a thread before responding

(Narrator:  No he won't).

[Inside Pitch]

23 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Geckos can replace all 100 teeth in a period of three to four months.

If Maddon coached them they could get it done in two months.

[Inside Pitch]

19 minutes ago, Lou said:

I like Hubs.

Do you like Maddon?

[HeavenlyHalos]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would add that “heavy” is probably in the eyes of the manager. My impression of the Dodgers and Rays are that the FO influences a ton of stuff, but Roberts and Cash don’t complain about it because they accept that what they’re saying is probably right. And when there are disputes, they handle them in a collaborative way.

So the anthesis of Maddon. Those are good franchises too, hmmmm.

[Hubs]

13 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Wade's hot April was built on a .378 BaBip, he hit He hit .156/.217/.234 from May through Joe getting fired.  Pointing at one set of numbers is just cherry picking.

His full season numbers this season pretty much mirror his career stats..  .218/.272/.272 .vs .214/.291/.307..  The dude is just bad and nobody should get any credit or blame for his performance -- but we can point at Maddon for trying to use him as an everyday player despite a track record of being quite shitty.

That's actually my beef with how he was used -- dude was fine as a late inning speed guy, specialist type.  Maddon tried to use him as an everyday player -- something he isn't.

 

 

Wow .378? Wade isn't a good example then. Rengifo remember, wasn't up for the majority of the winning under Maddon, and so he wasn't an option. They both also stubbornly played Velazquez, which is okay if the rest of the team is hitting, but it was not.

Rengifo is the player that counters my argument to be sure, he struggled under Maddon in May, after his call up. Then did much better under Nevin.

Stassi and Walsh are two examples where they hit better under Maddon than Nevin. I will look in his book to see if he says the front office was tinkering with swings, or dictating taking pitches, or something besides injury that may have explained why both Walsh and Stassi slumped so hard.

Stassi also struggled under Ausmus. Stassi was at an OPS of .706 and .752 under Maddon in April and May, after hitting .752 and .886 the previous two years. He hit .235 OPS in 2019, then .526, .667, .402 and .460 in Nevin's Four Months.

But surely their lack of performance was injuries, and Rengifo's positive performance was Maddon leaving.

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Hubs

[Lou]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Do you like Maddon?

I think that's already been established.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, Lou said:

I think that's already been established.

I know..  I just like seeing you say he was a doody head.

[failos]

25 minutes ago, Lou said:

I like Hubs.

Same. I like his swing, too.

[Hubs]

8 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would add that “heavy” is probably in the eyes of the manager. My impression of the Dodgers and Rays are that the FO influences a ton of stuff, but Roberts and Cash don’t complain about it because they accept that what they’re saying is probably right. And when there are disputes, they handle them in a collaborative way.

To catch you up in one post @Jeff Fletcher Basically everyone thinks I am out of my mind for suggesting that Perry made a bad call by retaining Nevin before exploring options, that a one year deal for a bad manager may cost us Ohtani. Also that Maddon clearly sucks as a manager and is a jerk in his book for reporting on the overreaching and "influence" despite that Nevin had much worse results which had nothing to do with the manager, and instead was all injury related.

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

I know..  I just like seeing you say he was a doody head.

The mohawk will always be funny.

 

What an idiot.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, failos said:

Same. I like his swing, too.

Hahahaha OK, I hadn't picked up a bat in 15 years since little league, ok? But I'm glad you know I'm not @lifetime.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Hubs

[failos]

Just now, Hubs said:

Hahahaha OK, I hadn't picked up a bat in 15 years since little league, ok? But I'm glad you know I'm not @lifetime.

Haha, just giving you some shit, man. I haven't swung a bat in a while, too. 

[HeavenlyHalos]

11 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Hahahaha OK, I hadn't picked up a bat in 15 years since little league, ok? But I'm glad you know I'm not @lifetime.

that's exactly what Lifetime would say...

[Lou]

Just now, HeavenlyHalos said:

that's exactly what Lifetime would say...

He never said that

[Dtwncbad]

20 minutes ago, Lou said:

The mohawk will always be funny.

 

What an idiot.

The visual of him getting fired with the stupid haircut really IS funny.