Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Angel Oracle]

1 minute ago, jsnpritchett said:

Correct.  The injured guys were replaced by incredibly shitty guys--and then when those shitty guys not surprisingly continued to be shitty, they were replaced with even shittier guys, who, SHOCKINGLY, also performed terribly.  Who could have guessed?

With that many players used, it’s almost like throwing darts at a board.

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Hubs said:

I'm on the other side, but can recognize that its a good argument. Theo most likely never called to the dugout to tell Maddon in game what to do, or we'd have heard about it, just like this.

When your position starts off by speculating what did or didnt happen you're not starting from a very solid spot.  What we do know is Theo said he needed to be removed and he gave his reasons why.  Reasons not unlike those we have now seen played out in Anaheim, best of all, we need not speculate about it because its been Maddon doing all the talking.

You need to understand that I was actually on here in game day threads pointing out when the info showed one thing and the Angels did the opposite.  There was no rhyme nor reason to things, sometimes they set up for a shift when the batter showed no tendencies, other times the data screamed "shift now you morons" and they wouldnt... It was unreal.  I bitched about it so much our resident beat writer mistook my ramblings as being anti-shift.  When I clarified I was pointing to usage, set ups, and defensive positioning, I was told "they have more info than you", a fact I couldn't deny so I'd shut the fuck up. 

Fast forward to 2022, after firing some coaches and the GM putting one of his boys on the bench, the team suddenly started to shift when the data called for it. They stopped shifting when it said don't, suddenly almost magically the data readily available to us dopes was lining up perfectly with what the team did.  Amazingly whatever data the team had now matched the readily available data to us pissants -- can you believe the luck?  Lo and behold, the results were night and day diffferent, suddenly the pitching wasn't awful...  

It was all a coincidence played out over the span of three years right?   

As far as to whether or not we would have heard a out it it or not.... Do you think Maddon could get away with talking shit about Theo like he could Minasian?  Think maybe he's banking on people viewing the Angels as a dumpster fire so he is willing to shit all over the old mantra about keeping it in the clubhouse to save face???   

Maddon is the only person talking shit.  

[T.G.]

39 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I agree its tiresome and I'm glad its over but I don't think its as easy as saying a GM should know his place.

I spent two years watching games while tracking batter tendencies and publicly complaining about it in real time.  Not knee-jerk reactions based on poor outcomes, literally pointing out when they were doing the opposite of what the data argued they needed to do.  It frustrated me so much it flat out made me stop watching/caring for the first time in my life. 

Now imagine becoming the GM of a MLB team, you build your staff to try to help your manager win, you bring in the guys your manager said he wanted only to watch him piss all over the information you're feeding him then sipping wine and quoting Cervantes in post games.  I'm amazed it took Minasian as long as it did before he went full Moneyball movie on Lord Maddon Keeper of Baseball's Faith, and Protector of All Things Holy.

People can pretend this is a rookie GM and that he's overstepping, but he basically had the same issues with a guy who may just be the greatest GM since Branch Rickey in Theo.

I understand all that... but this is about Maddon leaving Trout in with a big lead and Minasian calling the dugout to tell him to take him out. It's not the same thing as Maddon going against the overall plan or philosophy.  Him not seeing eye to eye with what Minasian wanted the team to do is what got him fired.  He deserved to get fired.  Again, I'm glad he's gone.  I can't stand Maddon.

If Minasian got to the point where he felt he had to call the dugout to instruct Maddon on how to run the team - he probably waited too freakin' long to fire him.  He should have done it sooner.  Once he made that call, there was no going back. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

16 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Maddon is the only person talking shit.  

Somewhere out there Theo is laughing.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

If Minasian got to the point where he felt he had to call the dugout to instruct Maddon on how to run the team - he probably waited too freakin' long to fire him.  He should have done it sooner.  Once he made that call, there was no going back. 

Exactly, but I think if you are Perry you can't just fire a guy like Joe Maddon, you have to go through HR first, and let him lose 12 games in a row and have him tell you to F off.

[Hubs]

35 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I agree with you that Perry shouldn't be calling the dugout. I also think that Perry would tell you that he shouldn't feel like he has to call the dugout. 

Perry thought that a team 9 games over .500 after 31 games, playing at a .645 wpct was the appropriate time to intervene? 

 

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, T.G. said:

If Minasian got to the point where he felt he had to call the dugout to instruct Maddon on how to run the team - he probably waited too freakin' long to fire him.  He should have done it sooner.  Once he made that call, there was no going back. 

this is probably true and yet we both know why he couldn't fire him sooner.  His manager and owner attended the same wine tastings and cotililions.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

this is probably true and yet we both know why he couldn't fire him sooner.  His manager and owner attended the same wine tastings and cotililions.

You get mad props for using "cotillions" on a baseball message board. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

You get mad props for using "cotillions" on a baseball message board. 

I held my pinky up when I typed that, too.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

You get mad props for using "cotillions" on a baseball message board. 

That being said... your street cred just took a hit.

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Perry thought that a team 9 games over .500 after 31 games, playing at a .645 wpct was the appropriate time to intervene? 

 

Obviously the relationship is already strained at this moment, this isn't a one-off event. I'm not sure if the team record is the most important consideration here. 

[Tank]

is it normal these days for the FO to call the dugout to make lineup changes?

did maddon and montgomery have the same info as perry up in the suite?

if not, why did they feel this was what they needed to do with maddon? that might be a clearer sign that they were ready to toss him out regardless of how the team performed.

[Hubs]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

Obviously the relationship is already strained at this moment, this isn't a one-off event. I'm not sure if the team record is the most important consideration here. 

This was the moment that Joe decided to call out in his book.

Minasian was taking credit for their success in spite of Joe, but the Angels record after they fired him seems to indicate that they had success in that first month in spite of Minasian's over reaching.

 

[Hubs]

33 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

When your position starts off by speculating what did or didnt happen you're not starting from a very solid spot.  What we do know is Theo said he needed to be removed and he gave his reasons why.  Reasons not unlike those we have now seen played out in Anaheim, best of all, we need not speculate about it because its been Maddon doing all the talking.

You need to understand that I was actually on here in game day threads pointing out when the info showed one thing and the Angels did the opposite.  There was no rhyme nor reason to things, sometimes they set up for a shift when the batter showed no tendencies, other times the data screamed "shift now you morons" and they wouldnt... It was unreal.  I bitched about it so much our resident beat writer mistook my ramblings as being anti-shift.  When I clarified I was pointing to usage, set ups, and defensive positioning, I was told "they have more info than you", a fact I couldn't deny so I'd shut the fuck up. 

Fast forward to 2022, after firing some coaches and the GM putting one of his boys on the bench, the team suddenly started to shift when the data called for it. They stopped shifting when it said don't, suddenly almost magically the data readily available to us dopes was lining up perfectly with what the team did.  Amazingly whatever data the team had now matched the readily available data to us pissants.  Lo and behold, the results were night and day diffferent, suddenly the pitching wasn't awful...  

It was all a coincidence played out over the span of three years right?   

As far as to whether or not we would have heard a out it it or not.... Do you think Maddon could get away with talking shit about Theo like he could Minasian?  Think maybe he's banking on people viewing the Angels as a dumpster fire so he is willing to shit all over the old mantra about keeping it in the clubhouse to save face???   

Maddon is the only person talking shit.  

He's also the only one unemployed. Minasian can't go after him publicly, most likely. Joe never said anything about Theo interfering with him during games publicly. But yes, this argument is a little bit towards post hoc ergo propter hoc, and I regret that. 

As for the shift, I hate it. It takes the fun out of baseball and MLB agrees as rule changes are imminent. The product on the field is declining in popularity and in attendance. 

I like more steals and hit and runs, and stuff that is harder to quantify. Nevin stole 2nd at half the rate that Maddon did. He sacrificed less. They scored 4.49 runs a game under Maddon and 3.51 runs a game under Nevin. Some of this is due to injury, but not all. 

 

 

 

 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

And if there really was a bullpen matrix, its terrible that they couldn't use relievers and the relief staff which was largely terrible and cost the team games, which is clearly the GM's and an analytical fault. 

The data shows that the bullpen algorithm has reduced the amount of injuries to Angels’ relievers, so I’d say it’s working quite well.

The algorithm isn’t designed to turn Ryan Tepera into Edwin Díaz. It’s designed to keep your relievers healthy so you can use your top 8 relievers instead of having to use relievers 9-15 on the depth chart in meaningful situations.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

This was the moment that Joe decided to call out in his book.

Minasian was taking credit for their success in spite of Joe, but the Angels record after they fired him seems to indicate that they had success in that first month in spite of Minasian's over reaching.

 

I don't know about taking credit, maybe that part of the excerpt was lost on me?

I think this is the point where we are both going to start speculating, but for me Minasian's approach is about sustainability, where as Joe is trying to win tonight's game. Compared to someone like Scioscia, Joe is far more likely to play to win when his team is behind, or similarly when his team is well ahead. This will pocket you some extra wins in the short run, but in the longer term you are going to run in to fatigue and injury. I think this is what we are looking at when we talk about records with/without Madden.

[BTH]

35 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

this is probably true and yet we both know why he couldn't fire him sooner.  His manager and owner attended the same wine tastings and cotililions.

It’s weird though that Arte wouldn’t let Minasian fire Maddon in the offseason but then put up no argument whatsoever when Minasian broached the subject in June.

Must just be because of the 12 game losing streak?

[BTH]

12 minutes ago, Tank said:

is it normal these days for the FO to call the dugout to make lineup changes?

did maddon and montgomery have the same info as perry up in the suite?

From what we know, the front office wasn’t calling down to make lineup changes. They were simply just calling down to have Trout pulled in a blowout after Trout complained of groin soreness pre-game.

The fact that they had to do that says there wasn’t trust between Maddon and the front office— which would be an issue that had presumably built up.

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

The Mohawk was equivalent to firing of Maddon.  Both were desperate attempts to fire up the team and turn the season around. If you don't like the Mohawk you shouldn't like the firing. 

I don't give a fuck about the Mohawk. I do give a fuck about Maddon ignoring the front office, his employer, as how to manage the game. He was defiant and wrong in his defiance and deserved to be fired. 

[Blarg]

10 minutes ago, Trendon said:

It’s weird though that Arte wouldn’t let Minasian fire Arte in the offseason but then put up no argument whatsoever when Minasian broached the subject in June.

Must just be because of the 12 game losing streak?

Minasian fired Arte? No wonder he put the team up for sale. 

[Hubs]

16 minutes ago, Trendon said:

The data shows that the bullpen algorithm has reduced the amount of injuries to Angels’ relievers, so I’d say it’s working quite well.

The algorithm isn’t designed to turn Ryan Tepera into Edwin Díaz. It’s designed to keep your relievers healthy so you can use your top 8 relievers instead of having to use relievers 9-15 on the depth chart in meaningful situations.

I understand they were healthier, I'm not arguing that. Off the top of my head I think only Quijada and Herget spent time any significant time on the DL this year, maybe one or two other relievers did, but were they as effective?

Tepera was worse than his great year in 2021, but overall, pretty comparable to his overall career.

Loup was so far down from his great 2021, something was wrong and the coaching staff couldn't fix it.

Iglesias has looked insanely better with the Braves, (who I'm sure have their own matrix). 

[Hubs]

21 minutes ago, Hubs said:

He's also the only one unemployed. Minasian can't go after him publicly, most likely. Joe never said anything about Theo interfering with him during games publicly. But yes, this argument is a little bit towards post hoc ergo propter hoc, and I regret that. 

As for the shift, I hate it. It takes the fun out of baseball and MLB agrees as rule changes are imminent. The product on the field is declining in popularity and in attendance. 

I like more steals and hit and runs, and stuff that is harder to quantify. Nevin stole 2nd at half the rate that Maddon did. He sacrificed less. They scored 4.49 runs a game under Maddon and 3.51 runs a game under Nevin. Some of this is due to injury, but not all. 

 

 

 

 

And obviously I know runs scored is not dependent on shifting. I think players were being told to be more patient at the plate, by the front office and less so with Maddon at the helm.

I think the pro-Minasian, pro-Nevin crowd points to injuries, but the results say they weren't as effective with the bats, and that might be injury related, but it might be philosophy related too.

I think advance stats help pitchers more than hitters, and I think the evidence proves that both with the Angels and across the board, as less runs are being scored. The Yankees let the league with just over 800. 

The last time it was that low it was when the Angels did in 2015. 

 

[BTH]

56 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I understand they were healthier, I'm not arguing that. Off the top of my head I think only Quijada and Herget spent time any significant time on the DL this year, maybe one or two other relievers did, but were they as effective?

Tepera was worse than his great year in 2021, but overall, pretty comparable to his overall career.

Loup was so far down from his great 2021, something was wrong and the coaching staff couldn't fix it.

Iglesias has looked insanely better with the Braves, (who I'm sure have their own matrix). 

Tepera and Loup being bad have nothing to do with their usage. It has to do with aging and regression. Both of their velocities have dipped and they both were coming off career years.

 

And the Braves probably use the same matrix as the Angels considering that Minasian and Tamin came from the Braves

[ten ocho recon scout]

I'm neutral. No idea who the bad guy in all this is. (I do remember @Inside Pitch pointing out shifts last year, so that's not a good look for maddon).

But anyway. I have no side to take.

But I still laugh (literally) that we were stuck in a death spiral collapse. And Joe's idea was to shave his head into a Mohawk. And got fired the same day.

That's funny.

It's literally like Gosselin putting the home run cowboy hat on in a blowout game we lost, and he sat out, to pump up the boys, and then got released after the game.

[cals]

Since I know the collective judgment of this place is terrible about 95% of the time this thread is just comedy.

It’s going to be awesome when the team he’s managing does better than the Angels next season and bitter ex-girlfriends of AW come out in full force again.

Hi Strad!