Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I'm neutral. No idea who the bad guy in all this is. (I do remember @Inside Pitch pointing out shifts last year, so that's not a good look for maddon).

Wasn't the shifts, shifting isn't the problem.  It was shifting when the data said don't and then not shifting when it said to do it.  They just threw shit at a wall and played hunches or so it seemed.  Miraculously that came to a screeching halt this year and their shifts mirrored the BBSavant data.

[ukyah]

i haven't read this thread, but i've seen some of maddon's quotes from his book. fuck him. he comes across as not only a petulant crusading dinosaur, but also an angle shooter.

there's a lot that remains to be seen, but i think i'd rather have perry than maddon.

[ukyah]

i love how maddon absolves himself of responsibility for the losing streak in that OP quote. 

reminds me of that captain on the italian cruiseliner costa concordia that abandoned ship first, then "directed" the disaster from a small island.

[ukyah]

8 hours ago, bloodbrother said:

Yeah, why would you want to do things like the *checks notes* defending WS champs and a team that's won the division for 5 straight years. Sucks they hired Maddon in the first place but at least it's over

aaaaaand... maddon acts like he was trying to copy these like an outsider. he was with the braves. that's why he said we did it this way with the braves. also, isn't he related to the blue jays too?

don't you hire guys from successful organizations with the idea that they will implement some of the concepts that were successful over there?

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, cals said:

Since I know the collective judgment of this place is terrible about 95% of the time this thread is just comedy.

It’s going to be awesome when the team he’s managing does better than the Angels next season and bitter ex-girlfriends of AW come out in full force again.

Hi Strad!

I doubt Joe manages a major league team again, unless it's a Tony LaRussia like situation where a couple old winos want to get the band back together.

[ukyah]

7 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

On the call to the dugout, concur with you.    No communication should take place during the game.   That is the manager and coaches domain.

But, Maddon has to understand that the baseball world today is more FO driven.    I get that it’s hard to accept change.  But if it gets good results elsewhere, I’m all for it.

if i was the gm and my star player had complained of injury and was still in the game in a blow out, then i'd have some shit to say too that wouldn't wait. it's not just a fear. it's happened plenty of times to different teams.

[Second Base]

I agree with Maddon on this one. Everyone has a role to play, and if Minasian wants to move from personnel decisions to in-game decisions, then there's no purpose to Joe Maddon. 

And really, it doesn't matter if you like Joe or not. This applies to all managers. If the GM can do that, then just get rid of the manager position. 

I think they're pointless anyway. They all generally make all the same in game decisions anyway. 

[Docwaukee]

I didn't read through this thread, but I disagree with everything that @cals and @Hubs have posted.  

[ukyah]

27 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I agree with Maddon on this one. Everyone has a role to play, and if Minasian wants to move from personnel decisions to in-game decisions, then there's no purpose to Joe Maddon. 

And really, it doesn't matter if you like Joe or not. This applies to all managers. If the GM can do that, then just get rid of the manager position. 

I think they're pointless anyway. They all generally make all the same in game decisions anyway. 

 i disagree. the difference is that "old school" managers and their likeminded fans think, "the dugout is mine. i make the in game decisions." the "new school", which isn't that new anymore are of the practice that the manager is a part of the FO, they implement the strategies and tactics as the FO team warrants as necessity. maddon is an mlb dinosaur. he and the likeminded want it to go back to a way that it's not going to go back to. 

[cals]

You’re the same group of people who thought Ty Buttrey was an honorable man following his heart and that Trevor Bauer was guilty.  You also all thought Dipoto was “JeDi”.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Wasn't the shifts, shifting isn't the problem.  It was shifting when the data said don't and then not shifting when it said to do it.  They just threw shit at a wall and played hunches or so it seemed.  Miraculously that came to a screeching halt this year and their shifts mirrored the BBSavant data.

I don't follow the GameDay threads (usually. I usually drop in to post something if something cool happens, then close it and go back to work). But I actually remember you pointing that out several times, for whatever reason.

Again, I can't really give a take, because I haven't really paid attention in years. (I'm more AW fan than Angel fan the last several years). So I can't complain about lineups, bullpen usage, etc etc.

But this obviously stands out. And like you pointed out a few posts back, once they switched to going off of whatever data is out there, suddenly the pitching got better.

[Blarg]

So did the fielding because they weren't trying to make up lost ground being positioned incorrectly and turned near routine into near impossible plays. 

[TroutField]

7 hours ago, Hubs said:

 

I work with an extreme Micro manager and I've gotta tell you it chafes. It sucks thinking they don't understand that you have something handled. It's a terrible work environment. You either trust Joe or you don't. And if there really was a bullpen matrix, its terrible that they couldn't use relievers and the relief staff which was largely terrible and cost the team games, which is clearly the GM's and an analytical fault. 

Maybe you’re being micro managed because you aren’t getting the job done to expectation. Not doing the job to your boss’ standard because you think you know better is insubordination and terms for termination in most work environments. 
 

this is what happened to Joe Maddon.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, cals said:

You’re the same group of people who thought Ty Buttrey was an honorable man following his heart and that Trevor Bauer was guilty.  You also all thought Dipoto was “JeDi”.

everyone who agrees with you about Maddon thought all that other stuff.  

[cals]

15 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

everyone who agrees with you about Maddon thought all that other stuff.  

That’s fine.  I’m ok with being the only one right all the time about everything here.

[Puget Sound Angel]

Maddon is not just burning his bridges, he is napaming them.

Say goodbye to ever being hired by MLB again.

[Docwaukee]

57 minutes ago, cals said:

That’s fine.  I’m ok with being the only one right all the time about everything here.

you should write a book about that like Joe did.  

[Stradling]

14 hours ago, Hubs said:

This was the moment that Joe decided to call out in his book.

Minasian was taking credit for their success in spite of Joe, but the Angels record after they fired him seems to indicate that they had success in that first month in spite of Minasian's over reaching.

 

Jesus. He called the dugout once at least that’s what Maddon is complaining about. But you paint it like he’s constantly over reaching. 

[Stradling]

12 hours ago, cals said:

Since I know the collective judgment of this place is terrible about 95% of the time this thread is just comedy.

It’s going to be awesome when the team he’s managing does better than the Angels next season and bitter ex-girlfriends of AW come out in full force again.

Hi Strad!

Hi Cals. 

[Stradling]

11 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I doubt Joe manages a major league team again, unless it's a Tony LaRussia like situation where a couple old winos want to get the band back together.

It very well could be the same team that Larussa was managing, the White Sox. 

[Stradling]

8 hours ago, TroutField said:

Maybe you’re being micro managed because you aren’t getting the job done to expectation. Not doing the job to your boss’ standard because you think you know better is insubordination and terms for termination in most work environments. 
 

this is what happened to Joe Maddon.

Or Hubs is good at his job and doesn’t need to be micromanaged.  But since Hubs thinks Maddon was good at his job (he wasn’t) he’s projecting his situation on Maddon’s. 
There are micromanagers that micromanage everything because that’s the only way they feel comfortable.  Those guys suck.  Then there are people who can micromanage in certain situations when it’s necessary. Which one is Perry?  

[Stradling]

16 hours ago, stormngt said:

Gm should sign the players.  Manager should dictate strategy

This isn’t how the game has been in over a decade. 

[Second Base]

10 hours ago, ukyah said:

 i disagree. the difference is that "old school" managers and their likeminded fans think, "the dugout is mine. i make the in game decisions." the "new school", which isn't that new anymore are of the practice that the manager is a part of the FO, they implement the strategies and tactics as the FO team warrants as necessity. maddon is an mlb dinosaur. he and the likeminded want it to go back to a way that it's not going to go back to. 

So then why was Joe still the manager? You either trust him or you don't. If you don't trust him, get rid of him, but don't call down to the dugout to try and override him. 

I'm glad they fired him. Not because I think he was bad, because I think managers are useless and if they didn't trust him to implement their vision, then they needed someone else.

Evidently, Nevin is fine with the dugout dialogue. At the end of the day, the 2022 Angels were a crappy team, no matter who called themselves the manager.

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

This isn’t how the game has been in over a decade. 

That doesn't make it right.

OR... entertaining

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, T.G. said:

That doesn't make it right.

OR... entertaining

Oh it’s not entertaining but it’s the reality and Joe knew it as do all other managers being hired.  And of course the GM is going to have a say in strategy.  He has to acquire the players to fit into the teams strategy.