Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Exactly. Put yourself in Perry's shoes. You don't want to be calling down to the dug out in the middle of the game. Joe is trying to paint him as a micromanager, but I think it's tough to get into Perry's position with that kind of management style.

Look at the reason he called down to the dug out, the Angels were up big in the 7th inning, Trout had complained about soreness before the game, and Maddon is leaving him in there because Mike had said it had died down. This is Perry protecting the franchise from Joe, not dictating a bunt, or a hit and run.

Let's also consider the context in which Joe is fired. Mike Trout was playing every day through the midst of a career worst slump, a slump brought on by a serious injury that required rest. There is something of a trend here.

There is no fucking way that Minasian and Maddon had not talked about how to manage Trout’s playing time to protect his health and maximize wins over the course of the season.

That phone rang because Maddon was showing Minasian that HE was going to decide these details regardless of their conversations.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

There is no fucking way that Minasian and Maddon had not talked about how to manage Trout’s playing time to protect his health and maximize wins over the course of the season.

That phone rang because Maddon was showing Minasian that HE was going to decide these details regardless of their conversations.

Absolutely. The plan dictated by Minasian was to take him out if the game was in hand, instead Joe felt like he had more information and was in a better position to make a different call.

[Blarg]

4 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Leaving Trout in with a big lead is hardly a "trashcan fire."

Maddon's managing the Angels. 

[Dtwncbad]

9 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Leaving Trout in with a big lead is hardly a "trashcan fire."

Uh, I think it is exactly a trashcan fire.  A trashcan fire is harmless until that trashcan fire ends up being the source of a whole building burning down.

The analogy is right on.  It is something that needs to be addressed before it’s too late.

[Angel Oracle]

Point is, Maddon needs to get over how baseball has changed.

[Hubs]

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/10/06/joe-maddon-tom-verducci-book-excerpt

Joe Maddon was fired in his living room, sporting a freshly cut mohawk. On the morning of June 7, 2022, the Angels had lost 12 games in a row in a cavalcade of oddities and disasters, including the worst two weeks of Mike Trout’s baseball life (he hit .114 and struck out 17 times in those 12 games); a slump by Shohei Ohtani (.180, 15 strikeouts); injuries to key hitters Anthony Rendon and Taylor Ward; and epic failures by the bullpen. Los Angeles held 10 leads in those dozen games and lost them all.

 

Good start....

[Hubs]

Moreover, what Maddon calls a pregame “choreography” took root, spearheaded by Minasian and Tamin. Those two, not Maddon and his coaches, would decide which relief pitchers were not available for the game that night.

 

If this is true... all of you who complained about Maddon's bullpen choices (and me who complained about Nevin's) wow..

[Hubs]

General managers increasingly prefer to hire managerial blank slates: candidates with little or no experience and thus no established philosophies or norms to clash with how they want the job done. In 32 managerial changes from the 2017–18 offseason through Maddon’s firing by the Angels, general managers picked a first-time manager on 19 occasions—almost 60% of the time.

 

 

[Hubs]

3 hours ago, Blarg said:

Minasian made the right call to get him off the field and rest. Maddon disagrees simply because no suit is going to tell him what to do. 

No. This is an overreach. Maddon should've been in full control of who plays and who doesn't. If the trainer had suggested it, ok... but clearly this day was when the Angels started to fall apart. I remember them looking amazing against the Rays and then in the next few weeks, not doing great, then the losing streak.

It's what tanked the season, IMHO.

[Hubs]

And obviously I'm team Maddon, that shouldn't be a question. Reading this, from Maddon's POV obviously, shows that Moreno gave control to an unproven GM with a veteran manager again, same as he did with Tony Reagins and then DiPoto and Eppler with Scioscia.

If you look at where the team was after his argument with Minasian, on May 9, they played they were 20-11 after that night and the next night was Detmers No Hitter and Tony hitting the left handed dinger....but they then played .500 baseball for two weeks, and started the insane losing streak when they began to face better teams.

The losing streak being an excuse to fire Maddon, instead of the reason, shows the Angels are in real trouble. I though Minasian was a player first guy and that they had good chemistry, but I should've read into the Montgomery decision, and the other decisions, and now I'm hoping a Theo Epstein or Billy Beane joins the ownership group and everyone is dismissed.

They forced Maddon onto Eppler, and then Minasian, obviously which is a huge issue.

Guess Minasian has his yes man in Nevin, doubt the Angels will be in a better spot now.

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Uh, I think it is exactly a trashcan fire.  A trashcan fire is harmless until that trashcan fire ends up being the source of a whole building burning down.

The analogy is right on.  It is something that needs to be addressed before it’s too late.

Whatever.  This whole thing quickly became tiresome.

Again, I'm glad Joe is gone... but I also think Minasian should stay out of the dugout during games.  Just my opinion.

[Angel Oracle]

Minasian and Nevin apparently are much more on the same page than Minasian and Maddon were.

Isn’t that the important thing going into 2023?

Whatever happens after 2023 may well change the FO and who’s on the bench.

But in the meantime, I’m happy that 2023 has both on the same page.

[AngelsLakersFan]

14 minutes ago, Hubs said:

And obviously I'm team Maddon, that shouldn't be a question. Reading this, from Maddon's POV obviously, shows that Moreno gave control to an unproven GM with a veteran manager again, same as he did with Tony Reagins and then DiPoto and Eppler with Scioscia.

If you look at where the team was after his argument with Minasian, on May 9, they played they were 20-11 after that night and the next night was Detmers No Hitter and Tony hitting the left handed dinger....but they then played .500 baseball for two weeks, and started the insane losing streak when they began to face better teams.

The losing streak being an excuse to fire Maddon, instead of the reason, shows the Angels are in real trouble. I though Minasian was a player first guy and that they had good chemistry, but I should've read into the Montgomery decision, and the other decisions, and now I'm hoping a Theo Epstein or Billy Beane joins the ownership group and everyone is dismissed.

They forced Maddon onto Eppler, and then Minasian, obviously which is a huge issue.

Guess Minasian has his yes man in Nevin, doubt the Angels will be in a better spot now.

Again I want to go back to this call to the dugout being about protecting Mike Trout's health. Perry is trying to get him out of a meaningless game as discussed in the pre-game meeting (that Joe noted he dislikes) in order to protect the franchise. It is no coincidence that the impending losing streak that lead to Joe's dismissal was largely caused by Mike Trout playing through injury.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

Minasian and Nevin apparently are much more on the same page than Minasian and Maddon were.

Isn’t that the important thing going into 2023?

Whatever happens after 2023 may well change the FO and who’s on the bench.

But in the meantime, I’m happy that 2023 has both on the same page.

Say what you will about the way Perry wants to run things, vs how Joe wants to run things. In the end the front office needs to run the show and the guys in the dugout need to be on the same page. This has been a hallmark of the Angels in the post Bill Stoneman era. Aside from one year we have always had a power imbalance between the front office and the manager position, with two guys who had different views about how to win games. This doesn't work in the modern game - everyone needs to be rowing in the same direction.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Maddon's managing the Angels. 

This is just good data/analytics.

[Hubs]

5 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Again I want to go back to this call to the dugout being about protecting Mike Trout's health. Perry is trying to get him out of a meaningless game as discussed in the pre-game meeting (that Joe noted he dislikes) in order to protect the franchise. It is no coincidence that the impending losing streak that lead to Joe's dismissal was largely caused by Mike Trout playing through injury.

True, Trout was hurt. But he told Maddon he was fine, and he believed him. Minsasian overreached. The trainer should've brought it up at Perry's request, but not as an order.

[Angel Oracle]

2 minutes ago, Hubs said:

True, Trout was hurt. But he told Maddon he was fine, and he believed him. Minsasian overreached. The trainer should've brought it up at Perry's request, but not as an order.

Maybe it could have been handled differently.   But, it seems that Maddon instead of discussing whether calls during the game were appropriate, went way overboard to his boss.

What happens in a normal work environment when an employee yells an F U to their boss?

[Stradling]

26 minutes ago, Hubs said:

And obviously I'm team Maddon, that shouldn't be a question. Reading this, from Maddon's POV obviously, shows that Moreno gave control to an unproven GM with a veteran manager again, same as he did with Tony Reagins and then DiPoto and Eppler with Scioscia.

If you look at where the team was after his argument with Minasian, on May 9, they played they were 20-11 after that night and the next night was Detmers No Hitter and Tony hitting the left handed dinger....but they then played .500 baseball for two weeks, and started the insane losing streak when they began to face better teams.

The losing streak being an excuse to fire Maddon, instead of the reason, shows the Angels are in real trouble. I though Minasian was a player first guy and that they had good chemistry, but I should've read into the Montgomery decision, and the other decisions, and now I'm hoping a Theo Epstein or Billy Beane joins the ownership group and everyone is dismissed.

They forced Maddon onto Eppler, and then Minasian, obviously which is a huge issue.

Guess Minasian has his yes man in Nevin, doubt the Angels will be in a better spot now.

This is horse shit. 

[Hubs]

 

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Maybe it could have been handled differently.   But, it seems that Maddon instead of discussing whether calls during the game were appropriate, went way overboard to his boss.

What happens in a normal work environment when an employee yells an F U to their boss?

I work with an extreme Micro manager and I've gotta tell you it chafes. It sucks thinking they don't understand that you have something handled. It's a terrible work environment. You either trust Joe or you don't. And if there really was a bullpen matrix, its terrible that they couldn't use relievers and the relief staff which was largely terrible and cost the team games, which is clearly the GM's and an analytical fault. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

6 minutes ago, Hubs said:

True, Trout was hurt. But he told Maddon he was fine, and he believed him. Minsasian overreached. The trainer should've brought it up at Perry's request, but not as an order.

Either Perry is the boss or he isn't. 

The other issue Maddon brought up was the use of the reliever algorithm ... which according to @Trendon has reduced IL time. This is another area where the FO is trying to promote player health by limiting Joe's ability to over work his guys. One of the big take aways from the sabrmetric revolution was the correlation between usage and injury. At this stage of the game this is just common sense, and Joe fighting it illustrates his disconnect from the way the game needs to be played now.

[Hubs]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

This is horse shit. 

You can be on Perry's bandwagon, I'm officially off after this article. I no longer think he is a good GM and I feel the Angels are going to be in real trouble until he's replaced. 

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, Trendon said:

This was brought up within another thread by @Brandon and I think it’s interesting enough to have its own thread as there is more to unpack in the full article:

 

Maddon thought he had a good idea of why Minasian was there. Over the previous few days Minasian had told Maddon he was considering firing some coaches. “You can’t do that,” Maddon had told him. “They’re very good at what they do. No, that’s not the answer.”

Maddon took Minasian’s appearance on his doorstep as a bad sign for his coaches. They sat down in the living room. Minasian made a quick comment about Maddon getting “a haircut.” The words lacked the lilt of humor. Quickly it was apparent why. Minasian said he was “making a change” and removing him as manager. “I’ve got to do something, Joe,” Minasian told him.

…

Maddon’s firing had not been Moreno’s idea, anyway. It was Minasian’s. The GM spoke with Moreno just that morning and told the owner what he had in mind. “If this is what you decide is needed to right the ship, go ahead,” Moreno told him, according to a team source familiar with the conversation. “It’s totally your call.”

…

Maddon was also put off by some of the copycat processes implemented by Minasian. 

The Giants, Dodgers and Braves especially served as references for Minasian and his front office staff. In 2022 the GM instituted daily meetings with players, primarily the hitters, rather than just the traditional first-game-of-a-series meeting. “I just think it’s way too over the top,” Maddon says. “[Minasian] kept reminding me, ‘The Braves did it. The Braves did it.’ Fine. A lot of things were related to ‘We did it this way with the Braves,’ or ‘This is how the Giants did it.’ We were all over trying to do things like somebody else.”

After last season, Minasian replaced Maddon’s bench coach, Mike Gallego, with Ray Montgomery, a 52-year-old former player making the rare jump from the front office to the field. Montgomery, who had been the director of player personnel, was working in uniform for the first time after spending most of his career in scouting. Montgomery helped run those daily meetings.

…

Moreover, what Maddon calls a pregame “choreography” took root, spearheaded by Minasian and Tamin. Those two, not Maddon and his coaches, would decide which relief pitchers were not available for the game that night. It was based on a proprietary algorithm developed by Tamin that kept track of a pitcher’s work in rolling 30-day increments. In recent years it had become common for front offices to usurp control of the bullpen from managers. So-and-so “is down tonight” entered baseball parlance, and it came from upstairs. “In that losing stretch that led to my demise, a lot of relievers were made unavailable,” Maddon says. “I couldn’t use them.

“Tam had the 30-day matrix built on how to use relief pitchers, how often and how much rest they needed. Honestly, that’s insulting.”

…

The divide between old and new, manager and front office, data and art, Maddon and Minasian, reached a boiling point on May 9. The Angels had just scored five runs in the seventh inning against the Rays to turn a 6–3 lead into an 11–3 blowout. Ohtani hit a grand slam. The dugout was lively. Suddenly, head athletic trainer Mike Frostad walked up to Maddon at his usual perch on the top step of the dugout and said, “Perry just called down. He said get Trout out of the game.”

Earlier in the day Trout had complained about a bit of soreness in his groin. But later he told Maddon that the soreness dissipated, and he was fine.

To Maddon, Minasian broke a sacred code. The GM had called the dugout during a game to dictate strategy to the manager—a proven, veteran manager at that. To Minasian, he simply was deploying the power given to this generation of executives. Nothing was sacred. Nothing was out of bounds.

The next day Maddon blew up at Minasian in Maddon’s office. “Listen, don’t you ever f------ call down to the dugout again!” Maddon said.

Twenty-six days later, he was gone.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/10/06/joe-maddon-tom-verducci-book-excerpt

I don't blame Maddon.  And once again I argue that Advanced metrics is viewed too much as a religion and not suggesting performance based on stats.

The idea of a 30 day metric determining if a pitcher is available is exactly what I mean as being used as a religion.

And a GM should never call a manager in the middle of a game and dictate strategy!

I don't care if he is Armenian or not.  Minasian can go F himself.

[Stradling]

11 minutes ago, Hubs said:

True, Trout was hurt. But he told Maddon he was fine, and he believed him. Minsasian overreached. The trainer should've brought it up at Perry's request, but not as an order.

It wasn’t an order. The quote was something like Perry wants Mike out of the game.  Maddon’s response was to tell Perry to “never fucking call his dugout again”. 
Fuck that guy. 

[stormngt]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

Either Perry is the boss or he isn't. 

The other issue Maddon brought up was the use of the reliever algorithm ... which according to @Trendon has reduced IL time. This is another area where the FO is trying to promote player health by limiting Joe's ability to over work his guys. One of the big take aways from the sabrmetric revolution was the correlation between usage and injury. At this stage of the game this is just common sense, and Joe fighting it illustrates his disconnect from the way the game needs to be played now.

Gm should sign the players.  Manager should dictate strategy

[Stradling]

Just now, Hubs said:

You can be on Perry's bandwagon, I'm officially off after this article. I no longer think he is a good GM and I feel the Angels are going to be in real trouble until he's replaced. 

Yea well you are on team Mohawk which means your opinion means nothing to me.