Inside the MLB Culture Wars That Led to Joe Maddon’s Firing

[Hubs]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

Either Perry is the boss or he isn't. 

The other issue Maddon brought up was the use of the reliever algorithm ... which according to @Trendon has reduced IL time. This is another area where the FO is trying to promote player health by limiting Joe's ability to over work his guys. One of the big take aways from the sabrmetric revolution was the correlation between usage and injury. At this stage of the game this is just common sense, and Joe fighting it illustrates his disconnect from the way the game needs to be played now.

How many times did we question Maddon or Nevin's choice of reliever during the season, like not understanding that Iglesias doesn't do well in tie games or with runners on base? Now we find out there was a fucking matrix...jeebus Crisco.

[stormngt]

9 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Maybe it could have been handled differently.   But, it seems that Maddon instead of discussing whether calls during the game were appropriate, went way overboard to his boss.

What happens in a normal work environment when an employee yells an F U to their boss?

How many here have said Arte shouldn't micromanage?  Minasian should have that same standard.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Gm should sign the players.  Manager should dictate strategy

I don't think this classifies as 'strategy.' 

Perry is trying to implement an organizational philosophy around maintaining player health throughout a 162 game season. If this is not the realm of the front office then nothing is.

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Whatever.  This whole thing quickly became tiresome.

Again, I'm glad Joe is gone... but I also think Minasian should stay out of the dugout during games.  Just my opinion.

I agree its tiresome and I'm glad its over but I don't think its as easy as saying a GM should know his place.

I spent two years watching games while tracking batter tendencies and publicly complaining about it in real time.  Not knee-jerk reactions based on poor outcomes, literally pointing out when they were doing the opposite of what the data argued they needed to do.  It frustrated me so much it flat out made me stop watching/caring for the first time in my life. 

Now imagine becoming the GM of a MLB team, you build your staff to try to help your manager win, you bring in the guys your manager said he wanted only to watch him piss all over the information you're feeding him then sipping wine and quoting Cervantes in post games.  I'm amazed it took Minasian as long as it did before he went full Moneyball movie on Lord Maddon Keeper of Baseball's Faith, and Protector of All Things Holy.

People can pretend this is a rookie GM and that he's overstepping, but he basically had the same issues with a guy who may just be the greatest GM since Branch Rickey in Theo.

[Hubs]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't think this classifies as 'strategy.' 

Perry is trying to implement an organizational philosophy around maintaining player health throughout a 162 game season. If this is not the realm of the front office then nothing is.

It's not just player health, the GM should be in lockstep with the manager, and not undermine his decisions. 

I think this is being played out like in Moneyball, but in reality, it doesn't always work. You can see that with certain long term relievers who struggled with the matrix, going way below recent seasons...is performance or health more important. The Angels still had 67 players and a ton of injuries.

 

 

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I got really tired of Scioscia, and that isn’t Scioscia’s fault really.  It was more that he was good enough to stick around long enough for people like me to get sick of him.

But I was sick of Maddon FAST.

I really don’t care if he comes up with some “good points” in his defense now.  I was totally on board with dumping his “look at me I am special and everyone should love me and celebrate me” demeanor.

Even the Mohawk.  Jesus.  Another pathetic attempt to manage in a way where he gets the credit when the team turns it around.  The guy wanted the narrative to be that HE (Maddon Mohawk!) was the mastermind in manipulating the clubhouse culture to get things straightened out.

Good riddance Joe.  Congrats on wrecking your own Angel legacy by being a lazy entitled narcissist in your grand return to your original home team.

The Mohawk was equivalent to firing of Maddon.  Both were desperate attempts to fire up the team and turn the season around. If you don't like the Mohawk you shouldn't like the firing. 

[Hubs]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

I agree its tiresome and I'm glad its over but I don't think its as easy as saying a GM should know his place.

I spent two years watching games while tracking batter tendencies and publicly complaining about it in real time.  Not knee-jerk reactions based on poor outcomes, literally pointing out when they were doing the opposite of what the data argued they needed to do.  It frustrated me so much it flat out made me stop watching/caring for the first time in my life. 

Now imagine becoming the GM of a MLB team, you build your staff to try to help your manager win, you bring in the guys your manager said he wanted only to watch him piss all over the information you're feeding him then sipping wine and quoting Cervantes in post games.  I'm amazed it took Minasian as long as it did before he went full Moneyball movie on Lord Maddon Keeper of Baseball's Faith, and Protector of All Things Holy.

People can pretend this is a rookie GM and that he's overstepping, but he basically had the same issues with a guy who may just be the greatest GM since Branch Rickey in Theo.

This is a good point. 

 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Hubs said:

How many times did we question Maddon or Nevin's choice of reliever during the season, like not understanding that Iglesias doesn't do well in tie games or with runners on base? Now we find out there was a fucking matrix...jeebus Crisco.

I haven't had any issues with Nevin's bullpen management.

Maddon may have taken more blame for his pen usage than he deserved, but I suspect that the 'usage matrix' didn't lock him in to any terrible decisions. In fact I would say that my memory of his mistakes had more to do with when he took the starting pitcher out, or the order the relievers came out of the pen.

[Hubs]

Just now, Hubs said:

This is a good point. 

 

 

I'm on the other side, but can recognize that its a good argument. Theo most likely never called to the dugout to tell Maddon in game what to do, or we'd have heard about it, just like this.

[stormngt]

3 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't think this classifies as 'strategy.' 

Perry is trying to implement an organizational philosophy around maintaining player health throughout a 162 game season. If this is not the realm of the front office then nothing is.

Then this should be discussed prior to games.  

It should be a philosophy that we pull our stars out in blowouts.  That way Madden knows and advanced and no call is necessary to the dugout.

The call to the dug out to remove a player is strategy 

[Angel Oracle]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I agree its tiresome and I'm glad its over but I don't think its as easy as saying a GM should know his place.

I spent two years watching games while tracking batter tendencies and publicly complaining about it in real time.  Not knee-jerk reactions based on poor outcomes, literally pointing out when they were doing the opposite of what the data argued they needed to do.  It frustrated me so much it flat out made me stop watching/caring for the first time in my life. 

Now imagine becoming the GM of a MLB team, you build your staff to try to help your manager win, you bring in the guys your manager said he wanted only to watch him piss all over the information you're feeding him then sipping wine and quoting Cervantes in post games.  I'm amazed it took Minasian as long as it did before he went full Moneyball movie on Lord Maddon Keeper of Baseball's Faith, and Protector of All Things Holy.

People can pretend this is a rookie GM and that he's overstepping, but he basically had the same issues with a guy who may just be the greatest GM since Branch Rickey in Theo.

This in a nutshell

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Then this should be discussed prior to games.  

It should be a philosophy that we pull our stars out in blowouts.  That way Madden knows and advanced and no call is necessary to the dugout.

The call to the dug out to remove a player is strategy 

The implication was that this was discussed before the game, and that Joe opted not to follow the plan because Mike said he was feeling better.

[stormngt]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

The implication was that this was discussed before the game, and that Joe opted not to follow the plan because Mike said he was feeling better.

Them you discuss it after the game!

[AngelsLakersFan]

Just now, stormngt said:

Them you discuss it after the game!

I think Perry ended up discussing it with him before the game, a month later when he fired him.

[Angel Oracle]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Then this should be discussed prior to games.  

It should be a philosophy that we pull our stars out in blowouts.  That way Madden knows and advanced and no call is necessary to the dugout.

The call to the dug out to remove a player is strategy 

I agree with this.

Let the GM discuss it before the on field stuff begins, and not during the game.

But, and it’s an important but, many MLB teams (including successful ones) have incorporated their FO/manager dynamic like what Minasian is doing.

[Inside Pitch]

8 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Either Perry is the boss or he isn't. 

The other issue Maddon brought up was the use of the reliever algorithm ... which according to @Trendon has reduced IL time. This is another area where the FO is trying to promote player health by limiting Joe's ability to over work his guys. One of the big take aways from the sabrmetric revolution was the correlation between usage and injury. At this stage of the game this is just common sense, and Joe fighting it illustrates his disconnect from the way the game needs to be played now.

His BS about guys not being available because of the algorithm is self serving tripe.  That data serves two purposes, it tells you who to bring and gives you an idea how to plot out your usage.  If you bring in the guy that you shouldnt, burn him then bring in another guy you just used two guys and are limiting your future available choices.

Again watching in real time seeing the guy with reverse splits being brought in to pitch in front of a defense that was lined up opposite to what the data pointed to was pretty frustrating.  But he was Joe Maddon and he's super smart, just ask him.

[stormngt]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

I think Perry ended up discussing it with him before the game, a month later when he fired him.

Funny but doesn't change my mind about Minasian behavior. 

[stormngt]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I agree with this.

Let the GM discuss it before the on field stuff begins, and not during the game.

But, and it’s an important but, many MLB teams (including successful ones) have incorporated their FO/manager dynamic like what Minasian is doing.

Like a religion 

[AngelsLakersFan]

8 minutes ago, Hubs said:

It's not just player health, the GM should be in lockstep with the manager, and not undermine his decisions. 

I think this is being played out like in Moneyball, but in reality, it doesn't always work. You can see that with certain long term relievers who struggled with the matrix, going way below recent seasons...is performance or health more important. The Angels still had 67 players and a ton of injuries.

 

 

I agree, they need to be on the same page and they weren't, which is why the outcome was the right one.

As for the Angels using 67 players, Im not sure how much of that is really health related. Did the Angels really have more injuries than other teams? Rendon and Trout stick out but thats because we need those guys. My impression is that the record number of players has more to do with the fact that most of the team sucked than it did with any injuries.

[m0nkey]

Has Cali chimed in yet?

[Angel Oracle]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Like a religion 

Maybe, but if it works, all the better.

Having more talented relievers and better health for key position players would certainly help.

Having FOUR key players (Rendon, Trout, Walsh, and Ward) affected for significant time by injuries is never going to produce a successful season.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[Angel Oracle]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I agree, they need to be on the same page and they weren't, which is why the outcome was the right one.

As for the Angels using 67 players, Im not sure how much of that is really health related. Did the Angels really have more injuries than other teams? Rendon and Trout stick out but thats because we need those guys. My impression is that the record number of players has more to do with the fact that most of the team sucked than it did with any injuries.

Operation Clean Peanut needs to end.  It’s not conducive to success anyway, rotating player after player through the roster.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Funny but doesn't change my mind about Minasian behavior. 

I agree with you that Perry shouldn't be calling the dugout. I also think that Perry would tell you that he shouldn't feel like he has to call the dugout. 

[stormngt]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

I agree with you that Perry shouldn't be calling the dugout. I also think that Perry would tell you that he shouldn't feel like he has to call the dugout. 

No argument

[jsnpritchett]

5 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I agree, they need to be on the same page and they weren't, which is why the outcome was the right one.

As for the Angels using 67 players, Im not sure how much of that is really health related. Did the Angels really have more injuries than other teams? Rendon and Trout stick out but thats because we need those guys. My impression is that the record number of players has more to do with the fact that most of the team sucked than it did with any injuries.

Correct.  The injured guys were replaced by incredibly shitty guys--and then when those shitty guys not surprisingly continued to be shitty, they were replaced with even shittier guys, who, SHOCKINGLY, also performed terribly.  Who could have guessed?