Cleveland Indians changing their team name

[Vegas Halo Fan]

13 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Was wondering about this the other day, when this thread started. Specific to the term braves.

Is that an actual native word? Or an english translated one?

I remember Native American protests when the Braves played in the World Series at Minnesota in 1991. There were reports of Atlanta fans being accosted outside the Metrodome. When they painted the logos on the field, they omitted the tomahawk under the Braves script. To give the illusion of being even handed, they omitted the underline in the Twins logo, but it was clear what was going on.

[Mark PT]

17 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

One thing that I find offensive (and not just because I went to the University of Florida) is the Florida State war chant. A stadium full of white people waving arms simulating the swinging of a tomahawk while singing a faux-Indian chant (which unfortunately FSU alumnus Deion Sanders also brought to Atlanta as the tomahawk chop). Then there is the spectacle of a white guy in war paint riding a horse onto the field and sticking a flaming spear into it. Culture appropriation, pure and simple.

I can see your point if the action is offensive in and of itself. But if white people are reenacting a native ritual out of respect, then it should not be offensive. As to your example, I dont know how native people feel but would respect their opinion. I guess both sides should respect the intent and context of a given action.  

[Mark PT]

17 hours ago, ukyah said:

i'm fairly in the middle when it comes to a lot of this stuff, but this is a weird statement to make unless you're talking about the most generic of names. i think the peoples of these first nations definitely have the right to claim ownership over their names.

even braves makes sense because it's not really a generic term. as far as i'm aware there are no other people other than the native americans that used that term, whichever tribes that may have been specifically.

Yes, I agree. You should not name a team the Cherokees, for example. I was referring to words/names like Braves or warriors etc... These are names of respect, at least how I envision them. Redskins, however, is offensive as it reduces a people to their skin color.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

13 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

I can see your point if the action is offensive in and of itself. But if white people are reenacting a native ritual out of respect, then it should not be offensive. As to your example, I dont know how native people feel but would respect their opinion. I guess both sides should respect the intent and context of a given action.  

Mocking swinging a tomahawk is not recreating any ritual, and it certainly doesn't seem respectful.

At one point in their history, the Braves used the slogan "Scalp 'em, Braves". They dropped it, along with the Indian who used to come out of a "teepee" behind the left field wall and dance whenever they hit a home run. I read a story about "Chief Nocahoma" after he left, and he got a lot of grief from Native Americans for playing into stereotypes.

[Angelsjunky]

2 hours ago, Lhalo said:

So it's not their word.

So what does that matter? It is a word that refers to Native Americans, so it makes sense that they have a voice in its usage.

[ten ocho recon scout]

52 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

So what does that matter? It is a word that refers to Native Americans, so it makes sense that they have a voice in its usage.

But...

In this case, if its an English word, and isnt derogatory.... is it offensive? And if so, why?

Im not saying youre doing this, AJ, but the idea this group of people isnt allowed to acknowledge this group of people, because they arent them, is silly. 

One of the most popular teams in Japan is called The Marines. Should Marines be offended? The Japanese and the Marine Corps obviously have a history.... but the Japanese obviously chose the name out of respect for them, not to mock Marines. Now imagine if it was whatever the Japanese word for Marine is.

[ukyah]

2 hours ago, Mark PT said:

Yes, I agree. You should not name a team the Cherokees, for example. I was referring to words/names like Braves or warriors etc... These are names of respect, at least how I envision them. Redskins, however, is offensive as it reduces a people to their skin color.

i don't disagree with any of that. warriors is different from braves, being that it's not specifically relating to native americans. warriors is a common term. braves is an interesting case subject because it's not a native american word, but it's relating some version of bravo to young indian males with a very clear emphasis on the root origin which is, savage.

i don't find brave offensive, because it's been adopted by native tribes, but if a native expressed to me that origin of the word  and called it offensive. it's certainly not hard to understand that viewpoint.

full disclosure, my oldest daughter is shoshone indian. i have spent plenty of time on the res to have a somewhat informed opinion.

[Tank]

So what happened to “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”?

[Lou]

I feel bad for the giants of the world. Nobody seems to care about them. 

[T.G.]

20 minutes ago, Tank said:

So what happened to “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”?

 

 

[Cosmo_Kramer]

1 hour ago, ukyah said:

i don't disagree with any of that. warriors is different from braves, being that it's not specifically relating to native americans. warriors is a common term. braves is an interesting case subject because it's not a native american word, but it's relating some version of bravo to young indian males with a very clear emphasis on the root origin which is, savage.

i don't find brave offensive, because it's been adopted by native tribes, but if a native expressed to me that origin of the word  and called it offensive. it's certainly not hard to understand that viewpoint.

full disclosure, my oldest daughter is shoshone indian. i have spent plenty of time on the res to have a somewhat informed opinion.

Wind River?

[ukyah]

2 hours ago, Tank said:

So what happened to “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”?

totally serious answer. 

nothing happened. it's a platitude we tell children to calm them.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

6 hours ago, Mark PT said:

Yes, I agree. You should not name a team the Cherokees, for example. I was referring to words/names like Braves or warriors etc... These are names of respect, at least how I envision them. Redskins, however, is offensive as it reduces a people to their skin color.

Just off the top of my head, colleges and universities that might be affected by this if it were to proceed to its conclusion:

Florida State - Seminoles

Central Michigan - Chippewas

Illinois - Illini

Utah - Utes

North Dakota - Fighting Sioux

 

[ukyah]

1 hour ago, Cosmo_Kramer said:

Wind River?

la jolla indian reservation.

it's not in la jolla san diego.

which gives some more insight into colonial oppression. the la jolla reservation is luiseno indians, but they grouped shoshone into the same band because, you know, what's the difference?

[Cosmo_Kramer]

3 hours ago, ukyah said:

la jolla indian reservation.

it's not in la jolla san diego.

which gives some more insight into colonial oppression. the la jolla reservation is luiseno indians, but they grouped shoshone into the same band because, you know, what's the difference?

Interesting. And the wind river reservation is eastern shoshone

[Dtwncbad]

14 hours ago, Tank said:

So what happened to “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me”?

The contemporary saying would go something like this:

”Sticks and stones can break my bones but more importantly I must find a way to view as many words as possible to be offensive to me as it proves I care, proves I am enlightened, and allows me to feel superior to others (the irony) as I grandstand and explain to others why they also should be offended.”

[Dtwncbad]

Can’t wait for the day when there are absolutely no names even remotely associated with Native Americans and the SJWs will just pivot straight into the outrage that Native Americans are disrespected from being underrepresented in sports names.

[Jeremiah]

12 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

Just off the top of my head, colleges and universities that might be affected by this if it were to proceed to its conclusion:

Florida State - Seminoles

Central Michigan - Chippewas

Illinois - Illini

Utah - Utes

North Dakota - Fighting Sioux

 

Florida State, Utah, and Central Michigan have working partnerships with their local Native American tribes. UND has been the Fighting Hawks for a couple of years now. Illinois retired their Native American mascot in favor of a block "I" and are working on a new mascot (the belted kingfisher). Many of these names have been changed, and are continuing to change. That's the right thing to do. Native American people are not anyone's mascots. Reducing real people to these ridiculous stereotypes (faux native American chants, showing up in redface and fake headdresses, cheering with phony and stereotypical ephemera like drums and tomahawks) isn't honoring anyone. It would be completely unacceptable if it were directed at African- or Asian-Americans. Somehow it's cool to do that to Native Americans.  Sorry, @Vegas Halo Fan.That isn't directed at you.

FTR, I'm hoping they change it to "Spiders."

[Blarg]

Cleveland should have just changed the name first and then made the announcement. 

[tdawg87]

This is dumb.

I got changing "Redskins" (although it was one of the best team names in sports), but this is setting a really gay precedent. 

List every name for every sports team and I guarantee you there's a group of people who find it offensive. And I also guarantee you they'll be white.

[Jeremiah]

11 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

This is dumb.

I got changing "Redskins" (although it was one of the best team names in sports), but this is setting a really gay precedent. 

List every name for every sports team and I guarantee you there's a group of people who find it offensive. And I also guarantee you they'll be white.

You're right. It's just white people.  "Ending the Era of Harmful "Indian" Mascots. https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe

I know you like to joke, but you've also said some of the most insightful stuff in the politics thread. You're better than this.

[tdawg87]

5 minutes ago, Jeremiah said:

You're right. It's just white people.  "Ending the Era of Harmful "Indian" Mascots. https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe

I know you like to joke, but you've also said some of the most insightful stuff in the politics thread. You're better than this.

I mean, it pretty much is the white people. 

[Jeremiah]

Both of you, classic attacking of the messenger rather than addressing the message. And Kevin adds in a strawman about SJW's. The argument has nothing to do with that. Incredibly lazy takes.

So, all of the research studies and articles that can be easily found here (https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe), explaining why these stereotypes are harmful, were written by white people or SJWs?

[tdawg87]

11 minutes ago, Jeremiah said:

Both of you, classic attacking of the messenger rather than addressing the message. And Kevin adds in a strawman about SJW's. The argument has nothing to do with that. Incredibly lazy takes.

So, all of the research studies and articles that can be easily found here (https://www.ncai.org/proudtobe), explaining why these stereotypes are harmful, were written by white people or SJWs?

You'll notice I wasn't exclusively talking about stereotypes regarding Native people. You're reading far more into that comment than is actually there.

[Angelsjunky]

18 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

But...

In this case, if its an English word, and isnt derogatory.... is it offensive? And if so, why?

Im not saying youre doing this, AJ, but the idea this group of people isnt allowed to acknowledge this group of people, because they arent them, is silly. 

One of the most popular teams in Japan is called The Marines. Should Marines be offended? The Japanese and the Marine Corps obviously have a history.... but the Japanese obviously chose the name out of respect for them, not to mock Marines. Now imagine if it was whatever the Japanese word for Marine is.

No word is inherently offensive - it is just a sound made of letters. Obviously some have pejorative connotations, but "Indians" or "Braves" Isn't inherently insulting ("Redskins" is different, I'd say). But if many, many people whose cultural tradition is referred to by that name want it changed, I don't think it is such a bad thing to change it. And despite what some in this thread have said, it isn't just SJWs. Sure, they're usually loudest and most obnoxious, don't lose the signal for the noise. Native American groups have been trying to get these names changed for decades. 

What is strange to me is how upset people are about this change. Why does it matter? I mean, who cares if a baseball team changes their name? Is this a team name such a sacred thing that changing it is sacrilege?