Cleveland Indians changing their team name

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

No word is inherently offensive - it is just a sound made of letters. Obviously some have pejorative connotations, but "Indians" or "Braves" Isn't inherently insulting ("Redskins" is different, I'd say). But if many, many people whose cultural tradition is referred to by that name want it changed, I don't think it is such a bad thing to change it. And despite what some in this thread have said, it isn't just SJWs. Sure, they're usually loudest and most obnoxious, don't lose the signal for the noise. Native American groups have been trying to get these names changed for decades. 

What is strange to me is how upset people are about this change. Why does it matter? I mean, who cares if a baseball team changes their name? Is this a team name such a sacred thing that changing it is sacrilege?

No. But there more important things to worry about. Like how much you spend on a jersey.

[Angelsjunky]

31 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I mean, it pretty much is the white people. 

Actually, it's not - or not only white people.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

Actually, it's not - or not only white people.

[Angelsjunky]

History, tdawg.

Redskins - a racial slur.

Indians and Braves - were named during a time when Native American religious practices were outlawed, and Native American cultures were being systematically wiped out, children being "re-educated", eradicating their language and beliefs (there was a saying, "Kill the Indian, save the man.")

Over the years, many different Native American groups have petitioned and protested to get rid of these team names.  More recently SJWs step in, but that shouldn't obscure the real issue: that the team names are representative of a long history of abuse waged towards Native American peoples.

No harm is done by changing the names.

 

[Jeremiah]

13 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

No. But there more important things to worry about. Like how much you spend on a jersey.

It would certainly be ignorant to assume that the changes  for CLE, and even WAS in the NFL, aren’t motivated by the ability to sell new brands and tons of new merchandise. Their brands are losing sponsors and value. So they change. The right thing can be done for the “wrong” reasons.

[Dtwncbad]

 

38 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

History, tdawg.

Redskins - a racial slur.

Indians and Braves - were named during a time when Native American religious practices were outlawed, and Native American cultures were being systematically wiped out, children being "re-educated", eradicating their language and beliefs (there was a saying, "Kill the Indian, save the man.")

Over the years, many different Native American groups have petitioned and protested to get rid of these team names.  More recently SJWs step in, but that shouldn't obscure the real issue: that the team names are representative of a long history of abuse waged towards Native American peoples.

No harm is done by changing the names.

 

I think that is an easy-to-take, speculative position.  You can say no harm is done by changing names, and I can shrug my way through that no problem.  But to be fair, I would equally say that nothing, literally nothing, will be accomplished in changing the team names.  Literally nothing.  All of the actual, real problems Native Americans face will be exactly the same with the team name changes not moving the needle at all on anything that actually matters.

But lots of people who are addicted to showing they care will celebrate that they accomplished something.  Lots of people see problems, and they get upset by those problems.  There is nothing wrong with this, of course.  The issue is when it instantly turns into, "Something must be done!" and they just choose something to be done that does nothing.

Their personal need to "Do something" has no patience and has no discipline.

Anyway, when push comes to shove, I like the "Indians" name.  I actually like it.  But who cares?  If they want to change the name for whatever reason they want to change the name, have at it.  Whatever.

But I can't bring myself to buy into that team names are contributing to ANY of the actual problems Native Americans face, and changing the team names will do absolutely nothing to address any real problem in any way.

[Blarg]

A popular Lake Erie fish is the Walleye that makes for an easy new mascot, Wally. Who can be pissed about a fish for a team name? 

[Blarg]

I know, f'n vegans. 

[Angelsjunky]

11 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

 

I think that is an easy-to-take, speculative position.  You can say no harm is done by changing names, and I can shrug my way through that no problem.  But to be fair, I would equally say that nothing, literally nothing, will be accomplished in changing the team names.  Literally nothing.  All of the actual, real problems Native Americans face will be exactly the same with the team name changes not moving the needle at all on anything that actually matters.

But lots of people who are addicted to showing they care will celebrate that they accomplished something.  Lots of people see problems, and they get upset by those problems.  There is nothing wrong with this, of course.  The issue is when it instantly turns into, "Something must be done!" and they just choose something to be done that does nothing.

Their personal need to "Do something" has no patience and has no discipline.

Anyway, when push comes to shove, I like the "Indians" name.  I actually like it.  But who cares?  If they want to change the name for whatever reason they want to change the name, have at it.  Whatever.

But I can't bring myself to buy into that team names are contributing to ANY of the actual problems Native Americans face, and changing the team names will do absolutely nothing to address any real problem in any way.

I basically agree with this, and dislike the same--largely white SJW--phenomena, especially when it actually prevents deeper changes from happening by obscuring it with lip-service virtue signaling. But that isn't necessarily the case, in this regard. 

But just because the larger problems aren't addressed doesn't mean small, if only symbolic, things shouldn't be done. And of course Cleveland is not trying to fix the actual, real world problems that Native Americans face. They're changing their name due to cultural trends and pressures. 

 

[Angelsjunky]

Just now, Kevinb said:

So harmful. As someone who has red hair and is Irish. I can’t even get up the courage to go outside because of the fighting Irish mascot. It hurts me deep inside. The pain and suffering I feel from South Park saying gingers don’t have souls is so horribly offensive that I just can barely even think or work. Its a team name that’s not offensive or meant in an offensive way get over yourself.  

Well it is a good thing that your land wasn't taken from you (in this continent, at least), your culture, language and religion nearly eradicated. 

Also, South Park is satire - it is humor. A sports team name is not.

 

[Angelsjunky]

7 minutes ago, Blarg said:

A popular Lake Erie fish is the Walleye that makes for an easy new mascot, Wally. Who can be pissed about a fish for a team name? 

The fish lobby.

[floplag]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

Well it is a good thing that your land wasn't taken from you (in this continent, at least), your culture, language and religion nearly eradicated. 

Also, South Park is satire - it is humor. A sports team name is not.

 

Only it was, almost... or did you think people like the IRA were just antifa-esque champions?
Read a history book outside of the whole USA is satan context.   Its disingenuous to focus on the actions of early america while ignoring the rest of the world or even those people themselves who routinely slaughtered each other for resources. 
No one has the high ground here. 

[Jeremiah]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

So harmful. As someone who has red hair and is Irish. I can’t even get up the courage to go outside because of the fighting Irish mascot. It hurts me deep inside. The pain and suffering I feel from South Park saying gingers don’t have souls is so horribly offensive that I just can barely even think or work. Its a team name that’s not offensive or meant in an offensive way get over yourself.  

You could not have a more apples to oranges comparison if you tried. If you look at Notre Dame's history, one of the popular theories is the name came from a university president who was Irish and a Civil War vet, literally a fighting Irishman. Notre Dame is a Catholic university. Catholicism has a long history with the Irish people. And as AJ said, the Irish weren't systematically wiped out by European invaders who later appropriated their cultural norms in order to package them and sell them to other white people.

You should write to those Native Americans who wrote those articles and tell them just how not harmful racial stereotypes are.

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Well it is a good thing that your land wasn't taken from you (in this continent, at least), your culture, language and religion nearly eradicated. 

Also, South Park is satire - it is humor. A sports team name is not.

 

Sorry, that's wrong.  There was a land war in Ireland where lots of land was "stolen" from many Irish people.  I can tell you personally that my family were modestly successful land owners in Ireland, but were run out of their own property with violence in the late 19th Century.  It was give up your property or be killed.  It was more or less a forced "redistribution" of land ownership to those that were willing to risk their lives to fight for it.  It's called war.

This stuff happens everywhere across the globe for centuries.

Coincidentally to this conversation, much of my family bailed out of the violent environment and went to Canada, and then legally immigrated into the US into. . . . Cleveland.  So my personal family history in the US starts in Cleveland.  My grandfather was a huge Indians fan.  I used to have his old hat, but I don't have it anymore.  I wish I still had it.

[Jeremiah]

10 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

The fish lobby.

Perhaps the Angels wouldn't like that. I mean, they kind of have the best fish-named players in recent history, and therefore the best fish-related marketing opportunities for now.

[Jeremiah]

3 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

War happens. Are u still pissed at the British?

The Irish certainly are, and for good reason. None of that has anything to do with how Americans treated Native Americans. Here. In America. Again, apples to oranges.

[Jeremiah]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Sorry, that's wrong.  There was a land war in Ireland where lots of land was "stolen" from many Irish people.  I can tell you personally that my family were modestly successful land owners in Ireland, but were run out of their own property with violence in the late 19th Century.  It was give up your property or be killed.  It was more or less a forced "redistribution" of land ownership to those that were willing to risk their lives to fight for it.  It's called war.

This stuff happens everywhere across the globe for centuries.

Coincidentally to this conversation, much of my family bailed out of the violent environment and went to Canada, and then legally immigrated into the US into. . . . Cleveland.  So my personal family history in the US starts in Cleveland.  My grandfather was a huge Indians fan.  I used to have his old hat, but I don't have it anymore.  I wish I still had it.

You'll note that AJ was saying that stuff didn't happen in America at the behest of the US government. Your family found a safe home in America. The Native Americans had theirs stolen away. That's the difference.

[Angelsjunky]

8 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Sorry, that's wrong.  There was a land war in Ireland where lots of land was "stolen" from many Irish people.  I can tell you personally that my family were modestly successful land owners in Ireland, but were run out of their own property with violence in the late 19th Century.  It was give up your property or be killed.  It was more or less a forced "redistribution" of land ownership to those that were willing to risk their lives to fight for it.  It's called war.

This stuff happens everywhere across the globe for centuries.

Coincidentally to this conversation, much of my family bailed out of the violent environment and went to Canada, and then legally immigrated into the US into. . . . Cleveland.  So my personal family history in the US starts in Cleveland.  My grandfather was a huge Indians fan.  I used to have his old hat, but I don't have it anymore.  I wish I still had it.

Reading comprehension - I clearly and deliberately said "this continent." There's a difference, no?

EDIT: Whoops, missed Jeremiah's post. What he said.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[Jeremiah]

Honoring them:

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Reading comprehension - I clearly and deliberately said "this continent." There's a difference, no?

EDIT: Whoops, missed Jeremiah's post. What he said.

I missed that.

[Angelsjunky]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Nah I’m too busy being offended that they are mocking Irish people as always fighting and wearing green looking like leprechauns. How dare you lessen my plight. You don’t know what it feels like to be constantly tortured by cartoons this mascot and its name. But ya Irish never got slack from anyone or weren’t treated poorly do some research. People who settled here expanded and we now have this country. There were wars bad things happen in times of war. Are they excuses no but shit happens. 

Oh, please. Compare the history and plight of Native Americans in this country to that of the Irish in this country.

 

[Angelsjunky]

14 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

War happens. Are u still pissed at the British?

War comes in different types. What the settlers did to the Native Americans wasn't just war - it was colonization and near-genocide.

Why would I be pissed at the British? They are completely different things. You seem to conflate any number of things and say it is all the same.

Native Americans are still experiencing the results of their subjugation.

[Angelsjunky]

Just now, Kevinb said:

Oh piss right off land stolen. And I’m sure they were the first knew there and never stole land from anyone else or fought and gained control of land or lost control of land. War happens it’s happened for thousands of years. That’s how people used to get land and still outside of the USA in a lot of places still get land it’s by fighting for it. You are so privileged that you just have to buy a price of land or rent or whatever it is you do to live where u live here. Kick rocks stole. Please!

Where's the English Cop when we need him?

Yes, war happens - and it is awful. You use that phrase like a justification. Animals seemingly rape, does that justify rape? Etc. What happened to the idea of progress? Shouldn't we learn from the past and try to rectify mistakes, while forging a better present and future? 

[Jeremiah]

5 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Nah I’m too busy being offended that they are mocking Irish people as always fighting and wearing green looking like leprechauns. How dare you lessen my plight. You don’t know what it feels like to be constantly tortured by cartoons this mascot and its name. But ya Irish never got slack from anyone or weren’t treated poorly do some research. People who settled here expanded and we now have this country. There were wars bad things happen in times of war. Are they excuses no but shit happens. 

There is a stunning amount of privilege in that comment. I am well aware of the history America has with treating immigrants. It is an amazing historical irony since 30% of the people in the US can trace their family history to Ellis Island (but I don't know my history). That said, you talk about the plight of the Irish in the 20th century, while referencing a team name that was adopted before the turn of the century, while then essentially saying it's cool for rich white Americans to continue marginalizing Native Americans because it is what it is.

[Jeremiah]

3 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I am driving and texting. Now I am home. Sorry for the spelling and grammatical errors. You got me. 

Hey, man. Don't get yourself hurt over the message board.