Angels acquire Jose Iglesias from the Orioles for Garrett Stallings and Jean Pinto

[BTH]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

At what point do we think about moving Trout to one of the corner outfield positions and replacing him at CF? Could Trout play Left or Right better than he plays Center?

Once Marsh establishes himself as a good hitter and fielder, I think you pull the trigger.

I wouldn't move Trout to a corner unless you know that Marsh is going to be a long-term option in center, which means he has to prove himself offensively and defensively at the major league level.

[Angels in 2030]

When Trout says it's ok.  He should be understanding of such a situation considering Torii Hunter did the same when someone better defensively came along and he was getting up there in age.  It's not now though at all....maybe 2022 or 2023.  

[Bronson]

Trout will be the center fielder for at least the next 3 years.

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

OK, you make a good argument. With Pujols coming off the books, the idea of going after a Lindor or Correa seems more possible. And it isn't like there is a SS prospect on deck; I'm not confident that Jackson will stick at SS, and even if he does, is likely 2-3 years away. Vera and Paris are intriguing, but are 3-5 years away.

It is December 3, and the infield is basically set, so that allows him to focus on more pressing needs. Given what we know about Minasian, he might go hard after James McCann, and it seems like he's going to completely rebuild the bullpen. And of course there's a starting pitcher or two.

 

my point is that you're not committing to the next 3-4 years right now for a player that isn't elite.  You could later at the SS.  Or you could go a different route.  Mitigate downside risk while allowing for a potential upside play.  My guess is that we're not going to sign Lindor or even Correa but the option is there if we don't get the pitchers we might want over the next 1.5 years.  I really don't want Wong or Hernandez to dictate how we proceed.  

[Second Base]

The thing about CF is, neither Adell or Marsh are vastly superior CF than Trout. Trout is visually better than Adell. Marsh is about as good as Trout, but certainly not better, at least not yet.

The only prospect who is visually, undeniably better than Trout in CF is Jordyn Adams, and even then, Adams lacks refinement.

Trout should stay in CF until...

1. He can't. 

2. Adams isn't traded and develops.

At any rate, I think you're still looking at 2-5 more years of Mike Trout in CF. And that's a good thing. He isn't the best defensive CF, but he is top 10. 

 

 

 

 

[beatlesrule]

I'm bummed Simmons is gone and this is not an exciting replacement. Considering the Angels traded away what they need is also cause for concern.

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

I'm bummed Simmons is gone and this is not an exciting replacement. Considering the Angels traded away what they need is also cause for concern.

He is half a step behind Simmons defensively and at least the same offensively.  It may not be exciting, but it will be about the same level of play.  We traded very low end starting pitching that will be major league ready in 3-6 years.  I don’t love the move, but as a first move, to free up enough money to make the upgrades on the pitching side, I am ok with it.  You are basically getting 90% of Simmons for 30% of the cost.

[ten ocho recon scout]

12 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

I'm bummed Simmons is gone and this is not an exciting replacement. Considering the Angels traded away what they need is also cause for concern.

Im kind of in this camp, because Im such a simmons fan. Him being gone, and how it went down are a bust.

That said, I felt the exact same way when simmons replaced aybar. So I wont care once baseball starts again.

[rafibomb]

25 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

I'm bummed Simmons is gone and this is not an exciting replacement. Considering the Angels traded away what they need is also cause for concern.

We did not trade away what we needed. Yes, we need pitchers. But we need pitchers that can contribute today. We don't need a number 5/spot-starter type of pitcher 2 years away from contributing. We also don't need a lottery ticket that is at the very least 5 years away. And to be bummed Simmons is gone when Iglesias is practically the same exact player (slightly lesser glove but still elite defensively) at a discount is interesting. Unless you are just a huge Simmons fan and bummed the era is over then I get that. Simmons was fun to watch in an Angels uniform. Although Iglesias has been one of the more exciting players to watch defensively since entering the league.

Edited December 3, 2020 by rafibomb

[Erstad Grit]

42 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

I'm bummed Simmons is gone and this is not an exciting replacement. Considering the Angels traded away what they need is also cause for concern.

Angels need more number 5 starters 3 years from now?

Look at a guy like Tropeano. 

That's what we gave up. Easily replaced. 

[rafibomb]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jose-iglesias-is-now-an-angel/

Iglesias, too, is a brilliant defender at the position. He’s rangy and sure-handed, but his standout defensive attribute might be his strong, accurate arm. In fact, he graded out as the best defensive shortstop in the majors in 2020 per Statcast’s Outs Above Average. In fairness, he only played 24 games at the position due a strained left quad, which means the sample is even smaller than the already-small 2020 season would normally entail, but still: best in baseball!

After returning from injury, Iglesias split time between shortstop and designated hitter. Cue the record scratch — José Iglesias, a designated hitter? He came into 2020 as a career .273/.315/.371 hitter, good for an 83 wRC+. Was this some kind of Orioles stealth tanking nonsense?

It sure wasn’t! Iglesias absolutely raked in 2020. He hit .373/.400/.556, with nearly as many doubles (17) as he put up in 530 plate appearances in 2019 (21). His .407 BABIP doesn’t scream sustainability, and neither does the fact that he’s still José Iglesias. He did it in the way he’s always accrued value, only cranked up to 11: by excising both strikeouts and walks from his game almost entirely. Seriously, take a look at his season expressed in percentile rankings:

This feels like someone goofing around with the sliders more so than an actual season. First percentile walk rate, 98th percentile strikeout rate? 10th percentile barrel rate and 90th percentile xwOBA? One hundredth percentile xBA? What the heck is going on here?

In a word, flares? 36.2% of Iglesias’s batted balls fell in the “flare/barrel” categorization in 2020. That covers bloopers and low line drives, and while that rate is just a number in the ether, let’s provide some context. In baseball as a whole, 24.2% of batted balls fell into that bucket this year. From 2015 to 2019, Iglesias himself checked in at 25.7%. Given that batting average on flares and burners was .663 and slugging percentage .782 across all of baseball, that extra 12% explains a lot of Iglesias’s breakout.

Even if that rate falls back to earth in 2021, it’s not as though Iglesias is an unplayable bat. Sacrificing offense at key defensive positions has always been a necessary evil unless you happen upon a transcendent star, and Iglesias’ ability to put the ball in play gives his production a solid floor. His worst offensive season, a .255/.288/.369 nightmare in 2017, still came out to a 72 wRC+, which is awful but not Chris Davis awful. He accrued nearly 2 WAR that year due to his customarily excellent defense.

The Angels have a top-heavy roster, built around Mike Trout, Anthony Rendon, and Shohei Ohtani. Their struggle has always been finding role players, both position players and pitchers, to surround that core. With Simmons gone, shortstop threatened to be another hole in the roster. David Fletcher is an excellent defender at second, but to my eyes would be stretched defensively at short. By adding Iglesias, they’re back to having two premium defenders in the middle of the diamond, and Rendon is no slouch at third (for now). It’s not the only move they’ll need to make this offseason, but it’s an excellent start on constructing a supporting cast.

To secure Iglesias, they gave up two pitching prospects: Garrett Stallings and Jean Pinto. Stallings is a 2019 draftee from Tennessee who hasn’t thrown a pitch in a professional game yet — the Angels shut him down after drafting him two summer ago before 2020 went all 2020 on us. He’s a back-end starter type — he walked basically no one in college, but he doesn’t have a true standout tool to turn that strike-throwing into anything exciting. He sat in the lower 90s in college, which is something to keep an eye on — Stallings but with five more miles on his fastball would be a much more exciting pitcher.

Pinto is even more of an unknown. He made three starts late in the Dominican Summer League in 2019 before — well, you know. He turns 20 next month, so there’s room to dream, though scouts see his body type as already mature. He currently sits in the low 90s with a mid-80s slider with firm break. He’ll likely make the Orioles Honorable Mention list in this offseason’s prospect rankings, if for no other reason than that the Orioles valued him highly enough to trade for him.

For the Angels, giving up two long-shot pitching prospects who won’t be ready to make a major league impact anytime soon is a reasonable price to pay. They have Trout and Rendon right now, which means that maximizing their present-day chances is the best thing they can do in any trade. Adding Iglesias improves their team in 2021 — he’s a free agent after the year — and subtracting Stallings and Pinto doesn’t hurt this year’s outlook at all.

Edited December 3, 2020 by rafibomb

[kevinb]

2 hours ago, Second Base said:

The thing about CF is, neither Adell or Marsh are vastly superior CF than Trout. Trout is visually better than Adell. Marsh is about as good as Trout, but certainly not better, at least not yet.

The only prospect who is visually, undeniably better than Trout in CF is Jordyn Adams, and even then, Adams lacks refinement.

Trout should stay in CF until...

1. He can't. 

2. Adams isn't traded and develops.

At any rate, I think you're still looking at 2-5 more years of Mike Trout in CF. And that's a good thing. He isn't the best defensive CF, but he is top 10. 

 

 

 

 

The only reason I ask is all the stats that people post that Trout isn’t a good defensive center fielder. Which visually I think he’s a good one but I honestly know nothing about defensive metrics etc. I barely know anything about offensive random stats. 

[Second Base]

19 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

The only reason I ask is all the stats that people post that Trout isn’t a good defensive center fielder. Which visually I think he’s a good one but I honestly know nothing about defensive metrics etc. I barely know anything about offensive random stats. 

We've seen a shift in front offices await from defensive metrics as a way of valuing defense into more of a hybrid model where the scouting serves to reinforce defensive metrics or vice versa. 

It's when a player is positively rated in both arenas that you know he's good. Simmons was visually and metrically a great shortstop. Iglesias is visually a good shortstop and metrically an above average one. 

Trout had always been a good starting CF from a scouting point, and metrically, it seems to shift from year to year. The end result has been a great starting CF from age 20-25, and a good starting CF from age 25-30. I think chances are, he's probably going to be an average defensive CF in ages 30-33, and then reach that point in his career, just like Torii Hunter, where he can either be a subpar CF or focus his efforts on becoming a good corner outfielder.

I figure Trout will be the starting CF from 2012-2023, a good 11 year run. He'll probably be the starting LF from 2023 to 2027. And the starting DH from 2028-2030. 

[Slegnaac]

19 hours ago, mmc said:

I don’t understand why people seem to think his bat has to play for him to be successful here.  We have enough players who can hit.  It’s time to focus on run prevention.

[ukyah]

to those worried about what we gave up, especially in stallings, he has yet to make his professional debut. he certainly wasn't going to help the angels anytime in the next few years or more.

[angelsnationtalk]

10 hours ago, Warfarin said:

I'm very pleased with the deal.  Our middle infield is set now - Iglesias and Fletcher are the starters, while Barreto and Rengifo are the reserves.  If Barreto is healthy, Rengifo goes to AAA.  If Barreto is injured (seems likely he'll be out a bit as he rehabs from shoulder surgery), Rengifo can be the reserve.

With the glut of relievers and corner OFers on the market, I suspect Minasian can continue to cheaply fill those spots without much issue.  He will have to spend (either $$ or prospect capital) to improve SP and C, so likely, that is where we will see our money/prospects spent.

Don't forget about Jones for an option should someone like Rengifo get traded.

[ukyah]

16 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Don't forget about Jones for an option should someone like Rengifo get traded.

jones is kind of interesting to me. i get a dave roberts vibe from him.

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, ukyah said:

jones is kind of interesting to me. i get a dave roberts vibe from him.

If that's the case then trade him too

[Warfarin]

28 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Don't forget about Jones for an option should someone like Rengifo get traded.

I'm curious to see how Minasian will rate Jones.  But, yeah - he could potentially be a solid piece.  In any case, Minasian made a solid move and took care of one key need (middle infield) while spending very little.

Considering all the DFA's, I'd venture to guess he has somewhere around 30-35mil left to spend, factoring in projected arbitration figures and other expenses.

[eligrba4ever]

Iglesias seems like an adequate gap plugger. He ain't Simba and shouldn't get flack when he falls short on a play.

[Angel Oracle]

6 hours ago, Trendon said:

Once Marsh establishes himself as a good hitter and fielder, I think you pull the trigger.

I wouldn't move Trout to a corner unless you know that Marsh is going to be a long-term option in center, which means he has to prove himself offensively and defensively at the major league level.

The future OF (between 1-2 years from now) may well be Trout, Adams, Marsh.

Adams has special defensive potential as a CF.   As long as he can put up on average at least a .750 OPS yearly, he could well have big value to the team.

Assuming Adell hits well at AAA in 2021 and also does well enough up here later on in 2021, and regains enough value, that could well lead to a good trade a year from now.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[ukyah]

57 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

If that's the case then trade him too

that's funny. 

jones has a 138 ops+ in the big leagues. he should be a starter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/s

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

He is half a step behind Simmons defensively and at least the same offensively.  It may not be exciting, but it will be about the same level of play.  We traded very low end starting pitching that will be major league ready in 3-6 years.  I don’t love the move, but as a first move, to free up enough money to make the upgrades on the pitching side, I am ok with it.  You are basically getting 90% of Simmons for 30% of the cost.

And if needed, re-sign Iglesias after 2021, as he is just 30 currently (same age as Simba).

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, rafibomb said:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jose-iglesias-is-now-an-angel/

Iglesias, too, is a brilliant defender at the position. He’s rangy and sure-handed, but his standout defensive attribute might be his strong, accurate arm. In fact, he graded out as the best defensive shortstop in the majors in 2020 per Statcast’s Outs Above Average. In fairness, he only played 24 games at the position due a strained left quad, which means the sample is even smaller than the already-small 2020 season would normally entail, but still: best in baseball!

After returning from injury, Iglesias split time between shortstop and designated hitter. Cue the record scratch — José Iglesias, a designated hitter? He came into 2020 as a career .273/.315/.371 hitter, good for an 83 wRC+. Was this some kind of Orioles stealth tanking nonsense?

It sure wasn’t! Iglesias absolutely raked in 2020. He hit .373/.400/.556, with nearly as many doubles (17) as he put up in 530 plate appearances in 2019 (21). His .407 BABIP doesn’t scream sustainability, and neither does the fact that he’s still José Iglesias. He did it in the way he’s always accrued value, only cranked up to 11: by excising both strikeouts and walks from his game almost entirely. Seriously, take a look at his season expressed in percentile rankings:

This feels like someone goofing around with the sliders more so than an actual season. First percentile walk rate, 98th percentile strikeout rate? 10th percentile barrel rate and 90th percentile xwOBA? One hundredth percentile xBA? What the heck is going on here?

In a word, flares? 36.2% of Iglesias’s batted balls fell in the “flare/barrel” categorization in 2020. That covers bloopers and low line drives, and while that rate is just a number in the ether, let’s provide some context. In baseball as a whole, 24.2% of batted balls fell into that bucket this year. From 2015 to 2019, Iglesias himself checked in at 25.7%. Given that batting average on flares and burners was .663 and slugging percentage .782 across all of baseball, that extra 12% explains a lot of Iglesias’s breakout.

Even if that rate falls back to earth in 2021, it’s not as though Iglesias is an unplayable bat. Sacrificing offense at key defensive positions has always been a necessary evil unless you happen upon a transcendent star, and Iglesias’ ability to put the ball in play gives his production a solid floor. His worst offensive season, a .255/.288/.369 nightmare in 2017, still came out to a 72 wRC+, which is awful but not Chris Davis awful. He accrued nearly 2 WAR that year due to his customarily excellent defense.

The Angels have a top-heavy roster, built around Mike Trout, Anthony Rendon, and Shohei Ohtani. Their struggle has always been finding role players, both position players and pitchers, to surround that core. With Simmons gone, shortstop threatened to be another hole in the roster. David Fletcher is an excellent defender at second, but to my eyes would be stretched defensively at short. By adding Iglesias, they’re back to having two premium defenders in the middle of the diamond, and Rendon is no slouch at third (for now). It’s not the only move they’ll need to make this offseason, but it’s an excellent start on constructing a supporting cast.

To secure Iglesias, they gave up two pitching prospects: Garrett Stallings and Jean Pinto. Stallings is a 2019 draftee from Tennessee who hasn’t thrown a pitch in a professional game yet — the Angels shut him down after drafting him two summer ago before 2020 went all 2020 on us. He’s a back-end starter type — he walked basically no one in college, but he doesn’t have a true standout tool to turn that strike-throwing into anything exciting. He sat in the lower 90s in college, which is something to keep an eye on — Stallings but with five more miles on his fastball would be a much more exciting pitcher.

Pinto is even more of an unknown. He made three starts late in the Dominican Summer League in 2019 before — well, you know. He turns 20 next month, so there’s room to dream, though scouts see his body type as already mature. He currently sits in the low 90s with a mid-80s slider with firm break. He’ll likely make the Orioles Honorable Mention list in this offseason’s prospect rankings, if for no other reason than that the Orioles valued him highly enough to trade for him.

For the Angels, giving up two long-shot pitching prospects who won’t be ready to make a major league impact anytime soon is a reasonable price to pay. They have Trout and Rendon right now, which means that maximizing their present-day chances is the best thing they can do in any trade. Adding Iglesias improves their team in 2021 — he’s a free agent after the year — and subtracting Stallings and Pinto doesn’t hurt this year’s outlook at all.

.....yeah but.

[beatlesrule]

I really like Simba and got used to him being our shortstop. I guess this will ultimately depend on the contract Simmons gets and what the Angels do next year at shortstop. Simmons is likely a Hall of Famer. Inglesias is not. Simmons also blows him away in bWar.