Jo Adell is a hot mess

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, all of that, which makes it hard to assess where the team is really at - especially because of the shortness of the year. They could continue to suck for all sixty games, but in a longer year start putting it together and show us the potential to come. 60 games is not enough time to assess - that's the main factor I'm trying to highlight.

Yes, I agree that Upton's bat is really hurting the lineup. So is Pujols, and the decline/underperformance of Trout and Ohtani. And more so for the overall performance, the pitching staff.

Replacing Upton with the greatest hitter in major league history (Bonds 2001-04) doesn't put us in 2nd place. Maybe 3rd, which is where I would have expected us to be going into this season. But to be truly competitive, we'd need a lot more.

I don't think 60 games is not enough time to assess. I think that's plenty of time. I agree I think we do need more and I don't think subtracting Upton for Bonds turns this team into the greatest team of all time. But I do think it completely changes our roster, it completely changes this team. We've had one black hole in the line up for a little bit in Pujols, but having another black hole in Upton and Adell is just too much for this team to overcome while also having a bad pitching staff. 

Right now we are 19th in the league in Ops. and 24th in the league in team Era. and 5th place in the AL West any way you slice it this team isn't very good. Eppler needs to do better. 

 

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Your reading comprehension is incredible. I didn't say we'd be at the top of the division I said we'd be near the top of the division. We would be, we sure as hell wouldn't be at the bottom of the division. We have 7 games where we've lost by 2 or fewer runs. Bonds in the line up would change things. 

Ok so near the top puts us at 16-20 wins.  So 7 more wins.  There you go.  Sorry I said 7-10.  

[kevinb]

9 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok so near the top puts us at 16-20 wins.  So 7 more wins.  There you go.  Sorry I said 7-10.  

Yep and I think Bonds is that kind of player. Pujols is bad with his .208 batting average but he's old and he's been slowly declining for a while in Anaheim, Upton isn't even Pujols bad he's hitting below the .100 batting average mark. If that's not a releasable contract or stat line I don't know what is. Josh Hamilton was a mess here, but I would cherish Upton putting up Hamilton numbers here right now. 

[Angelsjunky]

11 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

I don't think 60 games is not enough time to assess. I think that's plenty of time. I agree I think we do need more and I don't think subtracting Upton for Bonds turns this team into the greatest team of all time. But I do think it completely changes our roster, it completely changes this team. We've had one black hole in the line up for a little bit in Pujols, but having another black hole in Upton and Adell is just too much for this team to overcome while also having a bad pitching staff. 

Right now we are 19th in the league in Ops. and 24th in the league in team Era. and 5th place in the AL West any way you slice it this team isn't very good. Eppler needs to do better. 

 

Again, we agree that Eppler needs to do better. At the least let's see how things look at the end of the year. 29 games is not 60 games.

I maintain that the bigger problem is the pitching staff. The lineup will improve on its own - especially if Trout gets hot, Ohtani improves, as players like Adell and Marsh mature, and Pujols and Upton are phased out. We've also got some good pitching prospects, although they might be 1-3 years from making a difference. The question is what to do in the meantime, and of course who to do it. 

Our main point of divergence is when to dump Eppler. You think after the year is done, I say after 2021 (if things haven't improved). I'm not opposed to bringing in a new GM, but it has to be the right person. I like some of what Eppler has done and would like to see someone continue building the farm. 

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

I don't fault the Angels for promoting Adell. I was calling for it myself. 

I just didn't expect him to be this bad. Like Trout, Glaus and a few other top prospects they looked overmatched but they also demonstrated immense talent that made them our top pick in the draft. 

Adell other than two hard hit singles has looked as I accurately have said, a HOT MESS. 

Glaus was really overmatched in 1998 at age 21.   Put up .571 OPS and just 1 HR in 165 PAs, and boy did that change a year later (.781 OPS and 29 HRs in 631 PAs). 

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

Again, we agree that Eppler needs to do better. At the least let's see how things look at the end of the year. 29 games is not 60 games.

I maintain that the bigger problem is the pitching staff. The lineup will improve on its own - especially if Trout gets hot, Ohtani improves, as players like Adell and Marsh mature, and Pujols and Upton are phased out. We've also got some good pitching prospects, although they might be 1-3 years from making a difference. The question is what to do in the meantime, and of course who to do it. 

Our main point of divergence is when to dump Eppler. You think after the year is done, I say after 2021 (if things haven't improved). I'm not opposed to bringing in a new GM, but it has to be the right person. I like some of what Eppler has done and would like to see someone continue building the farm. 

I like some of what Eppler has done as well. I am not an Eppler hater. Again I thought this team would be in a much better position than what we are in right now. Right now it's a joke and terrible. It's a plain laughing stock, with how much we've spent on payroll and the amount of wins we have. The pitching staff is a huge problem, so is our line up which I agree could sort itself out with more seasoning of Adell, getting rid of Upton/Pujols and Ohtani finding his swing again. I don't think we should can Eppler if this team he put together can finish 2nd or maybe even third. I wouldn't mind seeing a year contract extension to give him a longer leash. But if the Angels finish 4th or 5th then I think you have to look for a new GM. If I was Arte and I just spent all this money on Rendon etc and you still can't put together at least a winning season I just don't think there's a way to justify keeping Eppler around. 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Yep and I think Bonds is that kind of player. Pujols is bad with his .208 batting average but he's old and he's been slowly declining for a while in Anaheim, Upton isn't even Pujols bad he's hitting below the .100 batting average mark. If that's not a releasable contract or stat line I don't know what is. Josh Hamilton was a mess here, but I would cherish Upton putting up Hamilton numbers here right now. 

So Bonds would be a 15 WAR player.   I mean I guess it’s possible.   I would guess maybe a 3-4 win difference which would put him as a 10 WAR.  

[kevinb]

3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So Bonds would be a 15 WAR player.   I mean I guess it’s possible.   I would guess maybe a 3-4 win difference which would put him as a 10 WAR.  

Rely on WAR all you want. But It isn't real. Bonds did have an almost 12 WAR season. subtracting out someone hitting under .100 and terrible defense with what Bonds brings to the table offensively and defensively isn't even a question. Bonds would put the Angels near the top of this division. 

Bonds numbers are better than Trouts. Imagine having Trout as your second best player on the Angels. That's frightening. 

[Stradling]

I’ll let this one go because it’s just dumb.  There’s really nothing you can say that makes me believe Bonds would be a 7 game difference in 30 games.  That’s a 25 WAR season once you subtract the negative 2 you start with for Uptons shitty performance.  You are basically saying over the course of a regular season the difference between Upton and Bonds is 30 games. That’s make believe yet you either believe it or didn’t do any math. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Game 6 said:

I don’t think the use of WAR should be applied literally to the win/loss record of an entire team. I use it as a way to compare players to each other. 

Ok so if Upton played this entire year he’d be a negative 10 WAR player. Now work your way backwards from there in 30 games.  

[Jay]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yes, I agree that its not good and that Eppler hasn't performed as hoped. But I still would give him another year, because of the unique nature of this year. Last year I was thinking, "let's see how the team looks in 2020 to see if the Eppler Plan is working at all." 2020 is a freak show and about 40% of a full season, so I don't think will give us enough info to go on.

Can you extend a GM for 6 months?

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I don't know for sure, but nothing that isn't happening with Adell - and I think @Jeff Fletcher clarified that it isn't impacting his clock. I am talking out of my ass, but I imagine that now is no different than April. I think we gain another year if the Angels wait until May.

Service time this year is proportional. Every day a player is up this year he gets 2.7 days of service time. 
 

Under current rules, if you miss 15 days you don’t get a whole season. So this year that was like 6.

The super 2 threshold is usually something like 2.130-2.140. The season is 186 days so you have to miss like 50 days so this year that’s about 19.

Of course there’s going to be a new CBA after 2021.

[kevinb]

20 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok so if Upton played this entire year he’d be a negative 10 WAR player. Now work your way backwards from there in 30 games.  

You are taking WAR literal. 

[Stradling]

Just now, Kevinb said:

You are taking WAR literal. 

And you aren’t using common sense if you think we’d have 7 more wins, in 30 games, with this bullpen but with Bonds.  

[kevinb]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

And you aren’t using common sense if you think we’d have 7 more wins, in 30 games, with this bullpen but with Bonds.  

Bonds starts every game, Goodwin would be starting most every game as well. You really only have one black hole in the line up in Pujols. I mean it changes the entire structure of this team. We don't have Ward or Adell starting. We subtract out those awful numbers as well as Uptons. The teams line up completely changes and gets that much deeper. The trickle down effects would be massive. Do I think we'd be in first probably not but I think we are at least .500 and that puts us in a great position moving forward instead of last place in our division. Who knows what that added offense would do to the starting pitching staff as well. Pitching with a lead is much easier than pitching being down. 

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, nate said:

This whole team is a hot mess.

Remember Adell is playing because Upton was hitting under .100.

Nope, Adell is playing because Hermisillo was not providing anything of value. Adell came in as a fourth outfielder, splitting time with Goodwin in right field. At no time was he a replacement for Upton in left field.  

[kevinb]

3 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Nope, Adell is playing because Hermisillo was not providing anything of value. Adell came in as a fourth outfielder, splitting time with Goodwin in right field. At no time was he a replacement for Upton in left field.  

What are you talking about yes he was. Maddon stated it as much when Adell came up. Saying when you bring up a kid like that he needs to play every day, which is why Goodwin and Upton split time. He wasn't brought up to be a 4th or 5th outfielder. 

[Don]

Honestly, with this feeling like a lost cause of a season already I'm ok with Adell getting worked over in his first shot at regular playing time. Obviously it sucks for him and the team, and in an ideal world he'd be going through a lot of this development in AAA. But I'm all for him playing in real games and hopefully working through these challenges without it eroding his confidence too much. Hopefully the vets are telling him it's a hard adjustment for everyone and to just keep his head up and put in the work.

 

[eligrba]

28 minutes ago, Don said:

Honestly, with this feeling like a lost cause of a season already I'm ok with Adell getting worked over in his first shot at regular playing time. Obviously it sucks for him and the team, and in an ideal world he'd be going through a lot of this development in AAA. But I'm all for him playing in real games and hopefully working through these challenges without it eroding his confidence too much. Hopefully the vets are telling him it's a hard adjustment for everyone and to just keep his head up and put in the work.

 

Part of the problem is that Adell looks like he has received no instruction on playing outfield. I know this completely inaccurate, but it’s not obvious that his minor league experience did anything to prepare him for playing in the majors.

[Don]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

Part of the problem is that Adell looks like he has received no instruction on playing outfield. I know this completely inaccurate, but it’s not obvious that his minor league experience did anything to prepare him for playing in the majors.

That’s fair for sure. I’m just hoping that he has enough drive to get better that this whole experience leads to improvement in all aspects of his game. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

9 hours ago, Blarg said:

Nope, Adell is playing because Hermisillo was not providing anything of value. Adell came in as a fourth outfielder, splitting time with Goodwin in right field. At no time was he a replacement for Upton in left field.  

Yeah. This is totally false. 
 

The day Adell came up Maddon said he would play RF and Goodwin and Upton would platoon in LF.

https://www.ocregister.com/jo-adells-promotion-to-angels-means-a-reduction-in-playing-time-for-justin-upton

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jeff Fletcher

[GrittyVeterans]

I do worry about his confidence a little bit. I don’t like the fact that he botched a ball over the fence Canseco style and has dropped easy fly balls. I don’t like the fact that he’s being blown away by fastballs down the middle.

Sure, he needs to play and get reps but at a certain point there has to be diminishing returns to that if he isn’t ready for it mentally or physically
 

You don’t want him to start to overthink things. It’s only going to lead to more problems. 
 

We obviously have to be patient but I’m definitely in the ‘slightly concerned’ group of fans. This level of sucktitude from a prospect is not something we’ve really seen since Brandon Wood. And it’s not his fault but It’s a little scary

[kevinb]

31 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

I do worry about his confidence a little bit. I don’t like the fact that he botched a ball over the fence Canseco style and has dropped easy fly balls. I don’t like the fact that he’s being blown away by fastballs down the middle.

Sure, he needs to play and get reps but at a certain point there has to be diminishing returns to that if he isn’t ready for it mentally or physically
 

You don’t want him to start to overthink things. It’s only going to lead to more problems. 
 

We obviously have to be patient but I’m definitely in the ‘slightly concerned’ group of fans. This level of sucktitude from a prospect is not something we’ve really seen since Brandon Wood. And it’s not his fault but It’s a little scary

I’d start Adell every game he’s 21 he can play 30 plus games in a row. See what he’s made of. The great ones will figure it out eventually. 

[Angel]

Do you guys still believe Adell was actually a top 6 prospect?  I know these things are intangible but he hasn't shown much of anything while players like Tatis who were ranked similarly are raking or AT THE VERY LEAST showing flashes of what's to come during their struggles, like Trout did with his speed/defense.

 

As far as I'm concerned the farm director and scouts heads are on the block.

[AngelsFaninGA]

5 hours ago, Angel said:

Do you guys still believe Adell was actually a top 6 prospect?  I know these things are intangible but he hasn't shown much of anything while players like Tatis who were ranked similarly are raking or AT THE VERY LEAST showing flashes of what's to come during their struggles, like Trout did with his speed/defense.

 

As far as I'm concerned the farm director and scouts heads are on the block.

It's almost as if Eppler hasn't done a good job and is hiding behind the failures of Dipoto. The farm system hasn't produced anything besides Fletcher during his time here.