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Does this organization value pitching less than every other organization in baseball?


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3 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I agree with Pancake that this is a tired narrative.  It would probably be less tired if the premise was, “Should the Angels prioritize Starting Pitching at a Higher Level”?  But when you start the premise as they value pitching the least amount in all of Major League Baseball it seems tired.  

As it relates to the draft, this has been brought up here a few times.  When you are building a farm from scratch like Eppler has had to do you want to draft some sure things to build not just depth but currency.  It’s not a secret that pitching is much less predictable and a much bigger risk.  The success rate of pitchers in the draft is significantly less than position players.  Additionally if you have the 10th pick in the draft would you rather have an Adell type outfielder or a #3 starter?  Now that may seem like an exaggeration but how many college starters are taken 10th have Ace potential?  I’m sure they happen, but how often?  Then if you draft the high school pitcher the risk is so great and the development time is 4-5 years.  

 

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It feels like the Angels are well behind pretty much every other organization in the league when it comes to acquiring pitchers.  We don't draft pitchers high (Canning is the only top 2 round pick in

If you're asking about drafting, it's a fair question. But didn't they just offer almost $300M to Cole? You don't do that if you don't value pitching. 

Can you imagine if we all had to hang out in person, and talk? Instead of using gifs?  No thanks       (My spelling would be better, though)

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My follow up would be since Eppler has been here, which starting pitchers that were drafted (after the Angels draft choice) have had more success than Thaiss and Canning.  Obviously I’d rather have Forrest Whitley more than Thaiss, but he really shit the bed last year in the minors to the tune of an 8 ERA.  

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2 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

This offseason proves that. Arte’s solution for the pitching was Rendon. He just can’t help himself. Eppler is just along for the ride. 

This is more true than you'll ever know. All Arte cares about is the shiny new hitting toy. Since Weaver and Richards left this team due to age and injuries, very little has been done to address the fact we have no #1 or #2 starting pitchers. Sure we all wanted Cole but this team is hemorrhaging with their lack of pitching. Last years 3 stooges of Stratton, Harvey and Cahill were comical. This year we pu Bundy with a 5.1 era? Really? There's going to be a ton of pressure on Ohtani to be our ace. Will he be up for it? We'll see?

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I do think the team has overvalued college catchers.

In 2015 and 2016 they chose college catchers in the first round - Taylor Ward and Matt Thaiss.

They could have chosen two available starting pitchers in those first two rounds - Mike Soroka and Dakota Hudson.

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1 hour ago, Stradling said:

My follow up would be since Eppler has been here, which starting pitchers that were drafted (after the Angels draft choice) have had more success than Thaiss and Canning.  Obviously I’d rather have Forrest Whitley more than Thaiss, but he really shit the bed last year in the minors to the tune of an 8 ERA.  

Refer to prior post. Rinse. Repeat.

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1 hour ago, Dick B Back said:

Could you imagine us  AW members hanging with Arte talking “stuff” on his yacht?

we'd all be kissing Arte's ass and thanking him up and down.  Not a damn soul would have the balls to say to his face what they post on AW about him.  Thanks for the Lobster Mr. Moreno.  Such lovely flat wear Mrs. Moreno.  Did you get that at ...(whatever.  I don't shop and the only place I can think of is Target).  

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Just now, Dochalo said:

we'd all be kissing Arte's ass and thanking him up and down.  Not a damn soul would have the balls to say to his face what they post on AW about him.  Thanks for the Lobster Mr. Moreno.  Such lovely flat wear Mrs. Moreno.  Did you get that at ...(whatever.  I don't shop and the only place I can think of is Target).  

I don’t love Arte’s ego, but I prefer him over Disney or Jackie Autry.  I also can use common sense to know that if he sold the team and he got market value of $2 billion plus, that the owner taking over would be at a fundamental disadvantage (compared to Arte) and that would result in a worse experience.  That worse experience would either be a more expensive visit to the ball park (by a lot) or lower payroll.  

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5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I don’t love Arte’s ego, but I prefer him over Disney or Jackie Autry.  I also can use common sense to know that if he sold the team and he got market value of $2 billion plus, that the owner taking over would be at a fundamental disadvantage (compared to Arte) and that would result in a worse experience.  That worse experience would either be a more expensive visit to the ball park (by a lot) or lower payroll.  

maybe.  it would be pretty risky to find that out though.  

my favorite kind of money is SOG money.  Some other guy's money.  We spend a shit ton that around here.  

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13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Well it is starting from a place of, “Are the Angels the Worst at something” so probably.

Yeah, it’s a bad narrative to begin with. Of course the Angels don’t “value pitching less than every other organization in baseball”.

Now, if the thread was “Should the Angels value pitching more than they have in the past five years?” Well, that is a good beginning.

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4 hours ago, ettin said:

This actually brings up a good point, one among many on this subject.

There is a real movement in baseball to steer away from starters and toward more long relievers/multi-inning relievers. The reason for this is simple: Relievers get batters out at a better clip than starters overall. Finding the right mix of multi-innings types, starters, and true one inning type relievers is an optimization mix we don't need to go into here but the reality of the numbers shows the more times a pitcher goes through a lineup the more likely they will get hit. It also shows that higher velocity, spin rates, consistent release points, etc., also improve performance as a whole.

The Angels, as AO stated, have been drafting a lot of pitchers, just not at the top of the draft where traditionally taking a position player pays higher dividends. Arms are so unpredictable in terms of injuries that the whole selection process is a crap shoot of sorts.

You saw Eppler trying to acquire a front-of-the-rotation type from free agency this year and it just so happens none of them wanted to come to Anaheim for a plethora of reasons that were out of our control. Billy is more than willing to acquire a top-tier guy it just hasn't been ripe the last couple of off-seasons and we even lost Skaggs who I believe was on the cusp of becoming a front-end guy.

We have some potential front-end types in our system right now in Rodriguez and Kochanowicz, for example. It is the starters that Eppler will invest money in. Finding relievers is pretty easy for him so he doesn't invest there, particularly now that we have crops of throwers coming up in our system that he can pull on or trade from for other needs (Bundy for example).

I think this is just a perception issue that is not really true.

 

 

Makes sense ... although, most of the teams playoff pitchers were legit starters. 

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2 hours ago, Stradling said:

My follow up would be since Eppler has been here, which starting pitchers that were drafted (after the Angels draft choice) have had more success than Thaiss and Canning.  Obviously I’d rather have Forrest Whitley more than Thaiss, but he really shit the bed last year in the minors to the tune of an 8 ERA.  

Eppler with Dakota Hudson over Matt Thaiss in 2016.

Dipoto with Mike Soroka over Taylor Ward in 2015.

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2 hours ago, Stradling said:

I agree with Pancake that this is a tired narrative.  It would probably be less tired if the premise was, “Should the Angels prioritize Starting Pitching at a Higher Level”?  But when you start the premise as they value pitching the least amount in all of Major League Baseball it seems tired.  

As it relates to the draft, this has been brought up here a few times.  When you are building a farm from scratch like Eppler has had to do you want to draft some sure things to build not just depth but currency.  It’s not a secret that pitching is much less predictable and a much bigger risk.  The success rate of pitchers in the draft is significantly less than position players.  Additionally if you have the 10th pick in the draft would you rather have an Adell type outfielder or a #3 starter?  Now that may seem like an exaggeration but how many college starters are taken 10th have Ace potential?  I’m sure they happen, but how often?  Then if you draft the high school pitcher the risk is so great and the development time is 4-5 years.  

I don't know much about the draft, but I assume ace pitchers have come from all sorts of rounds not just the first pick in the first round? But either way I think it is wise that you pick the best player available, whether it be baseball, football, hockey or whatever. Picking the best player available is usually the best way to go. 

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