Astros accused of high-tech sign-stealing scheme during 2017 championship season

[Docwaukee]

15 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Or asking the catcher if he heard one bang or two.

or asking if that was the dinner bell.  

[Troll Daddy]

If the Angels aren’t trying to steal signs (legally)  ... I’d be disappointed for sure. 

[the dude abides]

From the Houston Chronicle:

MLB was already monitoring the Astros in early 2019.  They were monitoring video from MMP in early 2019 to identify banging sounds.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/amp/MLB-told-video-monitors-to-listen-for-Astros-14844792.php

 

[Tank]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

can you imagine being the scrub who has to be on drum duty? 

you'd probably look something like this guy:

[Chuck]

The World Series MVP wikipedia page FTW. 

 

[Chuck]

[Pancake Bear]

The dude on youtube (Jomboy) who has been doing videos detailing examples of the Astros 2017 cheating said he's heard that Luhnow is almost certainly gone after this all shakes out. He seemed unsure whether that meant getting fired, suspended, or outright banned.

I don't know how reliable he or whoever he heard this from is, and honestly it isn't that much of a stretch. I mean, I think at this point Luhnow and Hinch are screwed. How far the backlash goes remains to be seen, but this is a steroid-level scandal covering a whole team with management involved and apparently instigating the whole thing.

People keep saying every team does it. Yeah, well, every team isn't toasting everyone else in strikeout percentage at the plate - which is something that would obviously decline if you know what kind of pitch is coming. The Red Sox were using a freaking Apple watch late in 2017. That's amateur hour compared to what Houston had going on. So if every team is doing it, they're simultaneously a lot better at hiding it than the most analytical team in the business while also receiving no obvious benefit from it.

I don't know if vacating a title is possible, but at this point, does it really matter? The 2017 WS is forever tainted now, regardless of what Manfred ceremonially pronounces from on high. 

If it was just the 2017 regular season, they'd probably skate free mostly because Manfred essentially gave Boston a pass and warned everyone at that point that further punishment would be more severe. But the latest word was that they had a new method to cheat in the playoffs and World Series. If so, that's obviously a lot bigger deal than the regular season. It's a bigger deal that a given player using steroids. It would be like the team organizing steroids for most of the players. It's one thing to ignore or be unaware of individual players on your team cheating, but to set up a system for the whole team to do it? That's huge.

I doubt the players involved will receive any real punishment other than the stigma of being a cheat - not entirely unlike steroid users - unless there's evidence someone (like Beltran) played a major role in setting it up. 

Hinch, though, is screwed. At this point, I think Luhnow is also given the email from Goldstein that came out (no way he was acting alone). If the assistant GM got canned for taunting a reporter, I can't see either of them keeping their jobs, even if Manfred does nothing against them. Beyond that, what other punishment might look like remains to be seen. I suspect draft picks to be taken away and for them to have limitations put on how much international signing bonus money they can spend.

The exact parameters of those penalties are going to be what tell us how seriously Manfred wants to send a message. If it's something stupid like their next two 1st round picks - every fanbase in the league would give up their top pick in the next two drafts to win a WS. 

[Jay]

2 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

The exact parameters of those penalties are going to be what tell us how seriously Manfred wants to send a message. If it's something stupid like their next two 1st round picks - every fanbase in the league would give up their top pick in the next two drafts to win a WS. 

Yeah that would amount to a slap on the wrist.

But, since it occurred two years ago and the league is just now getting around to addressing it, I wouldn't be surprised.

[T.G.]

11 hours ago, the dude abides said:

From the Houston Chronicle:

MLB was already monitoring the Astros in early 2019.  They were monitoring video from MMP in early 2019 to identify banging sounds.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/astros/amp/MLB-told-video-monitors-to-listen-for-Astros-14844792.php

 

Commissioner Rob Manfred is scheduled to speak Thursday at MLB’s owners meetings in Arlington.

Edited November 19, 2019 by True Grich

[yk9001]

 

 

 

[Tank]

thank goodness this isn't a college football scandal where the punishment would be missing the second half kickoff or the coin flip to start the game.

[Angel Oracle]

8 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

The dude on youtube (Jomboy) who has been doing videos detailing examples of the Astros 2017 cheating said he's heard that Luhnow is almost certainly gone after this all shakes out. He seemed unsure whether that meant getting fired, suspended, or outright banned.

I don't know how reliable he or whoever he heard this from is, and honestly it isn't that much of a stretch. I mean, I think at this point Luhnow and Hinch are screwed. How far the backlash goes remains to be seen, but this is a steroid-level scandal covering a whole team with management involved and apparently instigating the whole thing.

People keep saying every team does it. Yeah, well, every team isn't toasting everyone else in strikeout percentage at the plate - which is something that would obviously decline if you know what kind of pitch is coming. The Red Sox were using a freaking Apple watch late in 2017. That's amateur hour compared to what Houston had going on. So if every team is doing it, they're simultaneously a lot better at hiding it than the most analytical team in the business while also receiving no obvious benefit from it.

I don't know if vacating a title is possible, but at this point, does it really matter? The 2017 WS is forever tainted now, regardless of what Manfred ceremonially pronounces from on high. 

If it was just the 2017 regular season, they'd probably skate free mostly because Manfred essentially gave Boston a pass and warned everyone at that point that further punishment would be more severe. But the latest word was that they had a new method to cheat in the playoffs and World Series. If so, that's obviously a lot bigger deal than the regular season. It's a bigger deal that a given player using steroids. It would be like the team organizing steroids for most of the players. It's one thing to ignore or be unaware of individual players on your team cheating, but to set up a system for the whole team to do it? That's huge.

I doubt the players involved will receive any real punishment other than the stigma of being a cheat - not entirely unlike steroid users - unless there's evidence someone (like Beltran) played a major role in setting it up. 

Hinch, though, is screwed. At this point, I think Luhnow is also given the email from Goldstein that came out (no way he was acting alone). If the assistant GM got canned for taunting a reporter, I can't see either of them keeping their jobs, even if Manfred does nothing against them. Beyond that, what other punishment might look like remains to be seen. I suspect draft picks to be taken away and for them to have limitations put on how much international signing bonus money they can spend.

The exact parameters of those penalties are going to be what tell us how seriously Manfred wants to send a message. If it's something stupid like their next two 1st round picks - every fanbase in the league would give up their top pick in the next two drafts to win a WS. 

Give all 30 of their draft picks and all int'l money to the other four AL West teams.

[Angelsfan1984]

No brainer loss of 1st round pick, International money, fines for the team, manager and GM. 1 year ban for the manager and GM. All the international draftees for last couple of years become free agents. If they don't strip them of the title, I would say players have to repay the playoff and world series bonuses.

[Pancake Bear]

I think the severity of the epunishment will also depend on whether mlb can prove they’ve been cheating since 2017. Obviously they were cheating during the 2017 season. We have rumors they had a system set up during the playoffs. If that’s true, it would be naive to think they haven’t continued right along. But there has to be some testimony or other evidence. If all of that is true, consequences will be monumental. 

[T.G.]

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by True Grich

[T.G.]

 

[T.G.]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28116718/mlb-commissioner-says-punishments-severe-sign-stealing-scandal

Manfred said he does not have a timeline for the investigation, but "I certainly would hope that we would be done before we start playing baseball again."

[Inside Pitch]

Thats riiiiight...   Talk tough while pushing it off until the future Mr. Manfred.

 

[Lou]

3 hours ago, Tank said:

thank goodness this isn't a college football scandal where the punishment would be missing the second half kickoff or the coin flip to start the game.

Chase Young agrees 

[the dude abides]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

Chase Young agrees 

Having him sit vs. the juggernauts of Maryland and Rutgers is pretty much the equivalent of what SMU received.

[Lou]

1 minute ago, the dude abides said:

Having him sit vs. the juggernauts of Maryland and Rutgers is pretty much the equivalent of what SMU received.

I expect a big drop in their CFP ranking later today.

[Lou]

26 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Thats riiiiight...   Talk tough while pushing it off until the future Mr. Manfred.

 

he's engaged?

[rottiesworld]

He won’t do crap, probably have the Astros take him to Del Taco for a Macho combination Burrito combo and to Starbucks for a drink.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Not to sound overdramatic, but if the argument about pete rose was that he may have effected games....

Black sox didnt cheat to win, they just laid down and effected a WS....

Where does this land?...

[Pancake Bear]

13 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not to sound overdramatic, but if the argument about pete rose was that he may have effected games....

Black sox didnt cheat to win, they just laid down and effected a WS....

Where does this land?...

Individual players get banned half a season for a first offense on taking steroids or steroid masking substances. Second offense is a season. Third is a lifetime ban. Red Sox incident in 2017 was a warning to everyone. 

A conspiracy to enable an entire team to cheat? Anything less than a year suspension for Hinch and Luhnow (and whatever other executives were involved) is a slap on the wrist. I wold ban them and anyone else (including anyone on the Angels or any other team if they did something of the kind) for life. I think it’s more egregious than steroids and not far off from gambling. (What would be the argument that gambling is worse - e.g. Pete Rose?)

Also, remember the Braves GM who got banned for life. Can anyone make a serious argument that the Astros’ cheating isn’t worse?

I don't think vacating the championship is realistic (or even necessary, given how it’s now the Barry Bonds of WS wins), nor is a playoff restriction for the next few years. Heavy fines and other draft and international signing related punishment would need to be severe enough that teams actually see it as a deterrent. You could argue that the GM being banned is enough, but I feel like the owner has to suffer consequences beyond losing some employees. Just my opinion, though.