Astros accused of high-tech sign-stealing scheme during 2017 championship season

[Lou]

Just now, Dochalo said:

how does that relate to anything being discussed here?  

[Tank]

6 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

In 2015 the NFL fined the Patriots $1M and took away 2 draft picks for deflating footballs. They also suspended Tom Brady for four games. They've won two Super Bowls since then.

Good for the patriots for recovering, but they were still hit pretty hard. 

The two situations aren’t really related, however. 

A major difference between these two situations is that there’s a growing list of video evidence to support it what the Astros did.

 

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

how does that relate to anything being discussed here?  

It's all cheating. It happened during the playoffs. The NFL Commissioner didn't do much about it.  

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

In 2015 the NFL fined the Patriots $1M and took away 2 draft picks for deflating footballs. They also suspended Tom Brady for four games. They've won two Super Bowls since then.

The league can suspend all the players from 2017 for this years post season, he can take away first round pick and international money, he can ban Hinch and Luhrow.  But If their replacements win the World Series this year it doesn’t mean the commissioner didn’t hold them accountable. 

[Claude]

Just now, Stradling said:

The league can suspend all the players from 2017 for this years post season, he can take away first round pick and international money, he can ban Hinch and Luhrow.  But If their replacements win the World Series this year it doesn’t mean the commissioner didn’t hold them accountable. 

My point is that I don't believe that the severity of the punishment will be equal to the severity of the crime. Manfred will try to find some way to take action to soften the public embarrassment that happened under his watch. He may even hire an independent investigator (neutral party) to assess the situation and offer suggestions on what action to take. 

[tdawg87]

7 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

My point is that I don't believe that the severity of the punishment will be equal to the severity of the crime. Manfred will try to find some way to take action to soften the public embarrassment that happened under his watch. He may even hire an independent investigator (neutral party) to assess the situation and offer suggestions on what action to take. 

Fair take. 

[Inside Pitch]

24 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

 

Both of you are correct in that cheating is an inexcusable offense but it involves both Players and Management. Manfred will have his hands full with the MLBPA. Remember how quick they jumped in to protect Hamilton. They're a brotherhood no matter what the circumstances. Will the players even cooperate with the investigators? He'll tread lightly and try to appease everyone. After all, it's the integrity of HIS entire league he's trying to protect. Look how he's handled the opioids situation. He's proposing testing and that's good but he probably has talked to Angels officials privately and told them to clean it up. He probably alerted all teams to keep a watchful eye on the opioids crisis.

I'm not following how this harks back to the Hamilton situation. 

The only thing they spoke out on was the leaking of information...  The rest of that shit-show followed the CBAs rules.   As far as this Astros situation goes.... there is no talk of terminating player contracts, no violation of collectively bargained rights as of yet, so what Is the connectoon? IMO it's far more likely the players are allowed to skate in order to hit the actual team management.  Anyway, the union rarely attempts to override the commish on anything with set rules in place these days mostly because Marvin Miller wiped the floor with Bowie Kuhn...  mostly its the stuff that hasn't been clearly delineated that they tend to get involved with, like the Angels assertion they had special language put into Hamilton's deal.   That was the actual issue that went before an arbitrator.

I think I may have missed some news on the Skaggs thing how exactly has he "handled" the opioid situation other than to say he's hoping to work with the union to expand testing??  

Basically, all I can recall he's really talked about is testing for yet another drug and the union is on board with it.

[Inside Pitch]

36 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

It's all cheating. It happened during the playoffs. The NFL Commissioner didn't do much about it.  

What's the NFL have to do with MLB?   

Do you remember how MLB handled the Beltre signing issue?   Just in case you don't ..... Because they were found to have knowingly signed him at 15, they were forced to close down their academy, prohibited from signing any Dominican players for a year, fined, and both the scout that signed him and the head of their Dominican operations were suspended for a year....That was for one isolated instance of cheating..  One.... 

This Astros thing is much more involved.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/87098954/adrian-beltre-dominican-republic-baseball-amateur-signings

[Inside Pitch]

38 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

My point is that I don't believe that the severity of the punishment will be equal to the severity of the crime. Manfred will try to find some way to take action to soften the public embarrassment that happened under his watch. He may even hire an independent investigator (neutral party) to assess the situation and offer suggestions on what action to take. 

Fair enough....  You're not so much arguing what should happen so much as what you think will happen... There's plenty of room for speculation.

As I said when responding to Strad, IMO that would be an embarrassment for the league.   But I wouldn't put it passed Manfred.

 

[Docwaukee]

I think it will be more embarrassing for baseball if the Astros don't get punished.  It's already out there that they cheated.  And it's not like one guy took it upon himself to convince some other guy to doctor up a ball or steal a sign or two from the pen.  They sent out emails with their intention, set up a closed circuit camera system, and cooked up a fairly elaborate plan to communicate the information to the batter.  This was seemingly done by almost every player on the team while the manager watched it happen and not just for a game or two here and there but for the better part of three seasons.  During those three seasons they averaged over 100 wins, went to two world series and an ALCS and won a world championship.  

This isn't glancing at the exam of the guy next to you cheating.  This is paying some guy to fake your SAT scores and get you into college on an athletic scholarship via a sport you don't play type cheating. 

There is no way in hell Manfred can sweep this under the rug.  If anything, the public would be outraged by any punishment that isn't super severe.  Slapping them on the wrist would be far more damaging to the sport than hanging these douche bags out to dry.    

[Docwaukee]

BTW, where was Fiers on blowing the whistle two years ago when he played for the Stros and getting his ring.  Now that he's elsewhere he gets an attack of morality?  

[Pancake Bear]

3 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I think it will be more embarrassing for baseball if the Astros don't get punished.  It's already out there that they cheated.  And it's not like one guy took it upon himself to convince some other guy to doctor up a ball or steal a sign or two from the pen.  They sent out emails with their intention, set up a closed circuit camera system, and cooked up a fairly elaborate plan to communicate the information to the batter.  This was seemingly done by almost every player on the team while the manager watched it happen and not just for a game or two here and there but for the better part of three seasons.  During those three seasons they averaged over 100 wins, went to two world series and an ALCS and won a world championship.  

This isn't glancing at the exam of the guy next to you cheating.  This is paying some guy to fake your SAT scores and get you into college on an athletic scholarship via a sport you don't play type cheating. 

There is no way in hell Manfred can sweep this under the rug.  If anything, the public would be outraged by any punishment that isn't super severe.  Slapping them on the wrist would be far more damaging to the sport than hanging these douche bags out to dry.    

This whole situation has been strangely compared to the Skaggs opioid issue. The obvious difference is that there aren't a bunch of major exposés being published about how the Angels were covering up a big drug issue in their clubhouse. Nobody is accusing them of anything. There are no reporters who are going to make a big deal about it if that goes away. Same with Hamilton. It's an absurd fallacy of false equivalence. 

They have the evidence. They have witnesses. They have a freaking smoking gun with the email and the video breakdowns. There is no way the big guys walk away from this. Hinch and Luhnow pretty much have to be gone. Probably other people in the front office and coaching staff, too. 

The players is another matter, though. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Reference Skaggs, and this is why I think the lawsuit is cheesy, is that he wasnt doing it openly. Its not like the angels said "well, thats just tyler's kick". It was his little secret, maybe known to a handful of the guys he was close with.

The astros situation is something the whole org was in on. 

In all honesty, Im kind of surprised the whole roster was down with it. Id imagine there would have been "good guys" saying "cmon, thats going overboard." But none did. That honestly surprises me. 

[Docwaukee]

6 minutes ago, Sean-Regan said:

This whole situation has been strangely compared to the Skaggs opioid issue. The obvious difference is that there aren't a bunch of major exposés being published about how the Angels were covering up a big drug issue in their clubhouse. Nobody is accusing them of anything. There are no reporters who are going to make a big deal about it if that goes away. Same with Hamilton. It's an absurd fallacy of false equivalence. 

They have the evidence. They have witnesses. They have a freaking smoking gun with the email and the video breakdowns. There is no way the big guys walk away from this. Hinch and Luhnow pretty much have to be gone. Probably other people in the front office and coaching staff, too. 

The players is another matter, though. 

I will be very disappointed if the players aren't punished.  they were in the dugout banging on a trash can after someone relayed signs to them from the tunnel.  How are they not complicit?  They're driving the getaway car.   Even the players who knew about it but didn't participate should be punished.  There isn't one guy on that team with plausible deniability.  You think Verlander is sitting there in the dugout wondering why some dude is whacking a trash can but never thought to ask why?  

NY city taxi service.  Everyone from the top down......

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, True Grich said:

Vice versa 

This stumped me for a bit, thinking it had something to do with calzone, or IP, or strad.

Then 3 hours later, I realized you answered my question one post above it, literally using the same term.

Havent felt this stupid in hours.

[Docwaukee]

19 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Reference Skaggs, and this is why I think the lawsuit is cheesy, is that he wasnt doing it openly. Its not like the angels said "well, thats just tyler's kick". It was his little secret, maybe known to a handful of the guys he was close with.

The astros situation is something the whole org was in on. 

In all honesty, Im kind of surprised the whole roster was down with it. Id imagine there would have been "good guys" saying "cmon, thats going overboard." But none did. That honestly surprises me. 

the sheer fact that Skaggs was able to be a pretty good major league pitcher while he was doing what he did tells me that he was highly functional and good at masking whatever problems he was having.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

11 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

 You think Verlander is sitting there in the dugout wondering why some dude is whacking a trash can but never thought to ask why?  

To be fair, with Kate Upton being at all their games, Verlander probably sees dudes whacking something in the dugout all game long.

[Pancake Bear]

2 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I will be very disappointed if the players aren't punished.  they were in the dugout banging on a trash can after someone relayed signs to them from the tunnel.  How are they not complicit?  They're driving the getaway car.   Even the players who knew about it but didn't participate should be punished.  There isn't one guy on that team with plausible deniability.  You think Verlander is sitting there in the dugout wondering why some dude is whacking a trash can but never thought to ask why?  

NY city taxi service.  Everyone from the top down......

Did I miss where the players were hitting the trash can? The pics I saw showed the garbage can down the tunnel next to the screen. 

Were the players involved? Absolutely. But they've got a strong union and I would assume they claim they didn't want to get blackballed, or they were told other teams did it, etc. If they argue that management pressured them into it and into keeping their mouths shut, I'm skeptical Manfred will push his luck by taking on the players union unless he has rock solid evidence that certain players had a larger role than simply benefiting from it.

We're obviously speculating based on very limited information, so it's hard to know exactly how culpable everyone was or how much evidence Manfred will be able to obtain. That's before even considering other ramifications, like suppose they've been doing it for the last 3 years. Does everyone on the roster between 2017-2019 get a suspension? How long? Do they vary? There is no official punishment for something like this, so Manfred is basically making it up either within the commissioner's office and key figures there (like Torre, for instance). The players association would push back big time on anything to players and they'd probably have a case, depending on the details. 

Again, it's hard to even guess because of paucity of information available and the lack of any real point of comparison. I wouldn't object to players involved being punished - I think they ought to be - but I'm just not sure its realistic. And being realistic, players really can't set something like this up on their own, the front office or coaches at least would have to be involved. I'm assuming Manfred's primary goal in punishment would be to be severe enough to make teams think twice about doing it again. If coaches and execs are banned for life and the owner is financially hit and competitive benefits like significant picks are taken away, and international bonus money is limited, I think he probably settles for that, whether he ought to or not.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Just now, Dochalo said:

the sheer fact that Skaggs was able to be a pretty good major league pitcher while he was doing what he did tells me that he was highly functional and good at masking whatever problems he was having.  

And in all honesty, when he was doing whatever, he probably didnt come off any different than a lot of his peers.... who drink and get the same effect.

[Docwaukee]

Just now, ten ocho recon scout said:

And in all honesty, when he was doing whatever, he probably didnt come off any different than a lot of his peers.... who drink and get the same effect.

or doing other stuff.  

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Did I miss where the players were hitting the trash can? The pics I saw showed the garbage can down the tunnel next to the screen. 

Were the players involved? Absolutely. But they've got a strong union and I would assume they claim they didn't want to get blackballed, or they were told other teams did it, etc. If they argue that management pressured them into it and into keeping their mouths shut, I'm skeptical Manfred will push his luck by taking on the players union unless he has rock solid evidence that certain players had a larger role than simply benefiting from it.

There's the rub.... 

The failure to hold players acountable may result in the general public questioning the veracity of whatever tough talk Manfred ultimately spews.  That's where the whole "integrity of the game" fluff stands a real chance of blowing up in MLBs faces.  It's a bad spot for them to be in.

Baseball already has an image problem.  There is all the talk about baseball being more boring than ever with the length of games, the three outcome tendencies, and the belief that there is lack of competition due to so many teams tanking.  You've also got MLB talking about wanting to shut down 42 minor league teams and alienating a bunch of small town America in the process....   Now add acknowledged unpunished cheating to the list and watch baseball's popularity take an even bigger hit.   Doesn't paint a pretty picture for a sport that likes to call itself "America's Pastime", does it?  Lol....  It really does suck to be Manfred right now...

I don't like constantly bringing up Landis' action after the Black Sox sandal but he really made clear baseball wasn't having at of it by taking action, even after the players were proven innocent in the court of law... The dude basically said...  I don't care what you did or didn't do, just knowing it was going on and not doing/saying anything makes you complicit. That basically gave birth to MLBs integrity rhetoric.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/blacksox/commissionerdec.html

I know the union is an obstacle and maybe it is too difficult to go after everyone but my guess there will future language baked into the CBA as a result at minimum.  With all the video out there of guys cheating, I don't see how MLB doesn't go after those guys where it's clear they took part in it...  

It's gonna be interesting.

 

[Claude]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I know the union is an obstacle and maybe it is too difficult to go after everyone but my guess there will future language baked into the CBA as a result at minimum.  With all the video out there of guys cheating, I don't see how MLB doesn't go after those guys where it's clear they took part in it...  

It's gonna be interesting.

 

They will most likely fine the team and place them on some type of probation. What’s done is done. The trophy has already been handed out. It’s not like a horse race where the stewards are allowed to disqualify or change the order of finish. MLB is going to have to eat this unfortunately. They weren’t paying enough attention because ratings. The players will escape this unscathed. 

[yk9001]

I'm less inclined to come down on the players.

When the assistant gm is sending emails on how to cheat, this is a culture problem of this team (like we didn't know this already).

Players get paid by the club.  This does not seem to be originated by them.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

They will most likely fine the team and place them on some type of probation. What’s done is done. The trophy has already been handed out. It’s not like a horse race where the stewards are allowed to disqualify or change the order of finish. MLB is going to have to eat this unfortunately. They weren’t paying enough attention because ratings. The players will escape this unscathed. 

Like I said, I think the players get to skate while the team gets hit hard.   If they let them off with a slap on the wrist, well -- that's a bad look for MLB.  

[the dude abides]

If Osuna doesn't work out for them, this guy has some pretty solid numbers and can probably be obtained on the cheap:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/32562/felipe-vazquez