Astros accused of high-tech sign-stealing scheme during 2017 championship season

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not to sound overdramatic, but if the argument about pete rose was that he may have effected games....

Black sox didnt cheat to win, they just laid down and effected a WS....

Where does this land?...

Baseball is always flapping its gums about how much they care for and need to protect the integrity of the game....   Well, this is maybe the biggest hit on that since the Black Sox scandal..   Far uglier than the coke scandal of the 80s, more impactful on the game than the collusion that went down, and promoted a far more imbalanced playing field than steroids ever did -- let's be real... MLB willfully let that happen because it was in their best interest..   IMO, anything other than some seriously vicious disciplinary action would IMO make Manfred look like a feckless little bitch and take any talk of MLB caring about the integrity of the game off the table for me.

6 hours ago, Sean-Regan said:

Also, remember the Braves GM who got banned for life. Can anyone make a serious argument that the Astros’ cheating isn’t worse?

Not only is it worse, it took a lot more people to pull that off and ultimately involved more people than the Braves situation did -- and it's how the Braves situation was handled that kind of worries me. 

Manfred pretty much put everything on one dude -- banned him for life in some fake show of force but let everyone else off with a slap on the wrist or less.    I mean, considering the shit teams have always done in Latin America, the Braves situation doesn't really register as being all that heinous.  Are there people naive enough to believe what the Dodgers were doing with the smuggling of Cuban players was less egregious than anything the Braves did?   That whole thing was kind of a joke.

Anyway, if this shit really happened like it's being played out -- then you had everyone from the very top to the actual players taking part in an effort to DEFRAUD the rest of MLB.    How is that not worthy of some nuclear level punishment?

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Baseball is always flapping its gums about how much they care for and need to protect the integrity of the game....   Well, this is maybe the biggest hit on that since the Black Sox scandal..   Far uglier than the coke scandal of the 80s, less impactful on the game than the collusion that went down, and promoted a far more imbalanced playing field than steroids ever did -- because let's be real MLB willfully let that happen because it was in their best interest..   IMO, anything other than some seriously vicious disciplinary action would IMO make Manfred look like a feckless little bitch and take any talk of MLB caring about the integrity of the game off the table for me.

Not only is it worse, it took a lot more people to pull that off and ultimately involved more people than the Braves situation did -- and it's how the Braves situation was handled that kind of what worries me. 

Manfred pretty much put everything on one dude -- banned him for life in some fake show of force but let everyone else off with a slap on the wrist or less.    I mean, considering the shit teams have always done in Latin America, the Braves situation doesn't really register as being all that heinous.  Are there people naive enough to believe what the Dodgers were doing with the smuggling of Cuban players was less egregious than anything the Braves did?   That whole thing was kind of a joke.

Anyway, if this shit really happened like it's being played out -- then you had everyone from the very top to the actual players taking part in an effort to DEFRAUD the rest of MLB.    How is that not worthy of some nuclear level punishment?

Outstanding post. 

[Inside Pitch]

 

[Docwaukee]

I'm waiting for the bullshit cover that only a couple people knew.  Then some sort of additional cover when that comes off as completely insulting to everyone's intelligence.  The evasive maneuvers that the Astros are gonna try to pull on this are going to be hilariously pathetic.  If Manfred falls for it he's pathetic.  

This needs to be a top down demo of that org from a punishment standpoint.  Fines, loss of picks, suspensions etc.  Including the players.  If they don't include the players in this then I'll lose all respect for MLB.  They were beating a drum or signaling from the pen for crap's sake.  Anyone who was at the plate when they were stealing signs and relaying it was obviously in on it and had to agree to take those queue's.  

This should result in 30-40 game suspensions of every single player that was involved.  And don't let them work out some sort of deal where they don't overlap.  If they really want to kick the Astros in the nuts, make those players playoff ineligible.  

They won a WS because they cheated.  They need to make it where they don't have another chance to do so for the next 2-3 years at least.  

[Pancake Bear]

7 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I'm waiting for the bullshit cover that only a couple people knew.  Then some sort of additional cover when that comes off as completely insulting to everyone's intelligence.  The evasive maneuvers that the Astros are gonna try to pull on this are going to be hilariously pathetic.  If Manfred falls for it he's pathetic.  

This needs to be a top down demo of that org from a punishment standpoint.  Fines, loss of picks, suspensions etc.  Including the players.  If they don't include the players in this then I'll lose all respect for MLB.  They were beating a drum or signaling from the pen for crap's sake.  Anyone who was at the plate when they were stealing signs and relaying it was obviously in on it and had to agree to take those queue's.  

This should result in 30-40 game suspensions of every single player that was involved.  And don't let them work out some sort of deal where they don't overlap.  If they really want to kick the Astros in the nuts, make those players playoff ineligible.  

They won a WS because they cheated.  They need to make it where they don't have another chance to do so for the next 2-3 years at least.  

After the Goldstein email, zero chance of that. Only question in my mind is whether Crane gets mixed up in it. I tend to think no, but who knows. 

I genuinely doubt the players get punished, but I could be wrong. 

[Stradling]

11 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I'm waiting for the bullshit cover that only a couple people knew.  Then some sort of additional cover when that comes off as completely insulting to everyone's intelligence.  The evasive maneuvers that the Astros are gonna try to pull on this are going to be hilariously pathetic.  If Manfred falls for it he's pathetic.  

This needs to be a top down demo of that org from a punishment standpoint.  Fines, loss of picks, suspensions etc.  Including the players.  If they don't include the players in this then I'll lose all respect for MLB.  They were beating a drum or signaling from the pen for crap's sake.  Anyone who was at the plate when they were stealing signs and relaying it was obviously in on it and had to agree to take those queue's.  

This should result in 30-40 game suspensions of every single player that was involved.  And don't let them work out some sort of deal where they don't overlap.  If they really want to kick the Astros in the nuts, make those players playoff ineligible.  

They won a WS because they cheated.  They need to make it where they don't have another chance to do so for the next 2-3 years at least.  

Brilliant.  This might be the best idea yet.  So they let them play all year, but the hitters that are still on the team from 2017 are ineligible for the post season which means they have to call up players on the 40 man roster to play off of September so they can be playoff eligible and if they still make the playoffs they will have a shell of their former roster to compete.  

[Claude]

Altuve did pretty well away from Houston in 2017.

[Docwaukee]

 

31 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Altuve did pretty well away from Houston in 2017.

as has been mentioned, it is completely irrelevant whether cheating actually helped them or not.  

Also, this about this.  Teams watch film and try to establish scouting reports on all these guys.  If they seem him 'adjust' to a 2-2 change up then they are less likely to throw that to him in the future when in fact that 'adjustment' was that he knew it was coming.  So everything goes out the window in terms of home/away splits because the way that guys were sequenced would have been totally different.  

One of the biggest challenges for all hitters is differentiating fastball from breaking ball.  knowing what's coming half the time throws off the entire approach.  

[Claude]

7 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

 

as has been mentioned, it is completely irrelevant whether cheating actually helped them or not.  

Also, this about this.  Teams watch film and try to establish scouting reports on all these guys.  If they seem him 'adjust' to a 2-2 change up then they are less likely to throw that to him in the future when in fact that 'adjustment' was that he knew it was coming.  So everything goes out the window in terms of home/away splits because the way that guys were sequenced would have been totally different.  

One of the biggest challenges for all hitters is differentiating fastball from breaking ball.  knowing what's coming half the time throws off the entire approach.  

Not sure how the commissioner is going to handle this but I’m sure he’s going to try to protect the reputation and integrity of the league. He has to put on his MLB ambassador hat and soften the blow with an across the board league wide warning for all teams. The PED era (bad press) is finally behind us so he’s going to try to kill this new issue ASAP. He’ll do some  superficial punishments that won’t hurt anyone. 

[Stradling]

16 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Not sure how the commissioner is going to handle this but I’m sure he’s going to try to protect the reputation and integrity of the league. He has to put on his MLB ambassador hat and soften the blow with an across the board league wide warning for all teams. The PED era (bad press) is finally behind us so he’s going to try to kill this new issue ASAP. He’ll do some  superficial punishments that won’t hurt anyone. 

I don’t believe this in the slightest.  These will be harsh penalties than come with suspensions For management, fines to the ownership, loss of picks and international monies.  

[Pancake Bear]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I don’t believe this in the slightest.  These will be harsh penalties than come with suspensions For management, fines to the ownership, loss of picks and international monies.  

Yeah, if Manfred soft pedals it, it’ll end him. He has to tread carefully so as not to upset the owners by acting too quick and making them dissatisfied with the result, but I don’t think he’ll go soft. GM’s are made, per reports from the GM meetings, journalists are calling for severe penalties, and pretty much across the board from what I’ve seen fans outside of Houston are really upset also. Even some Houston fans want Manfred to drop the hammer. 

I don’t see them getting off light. Of course, my definition of light and severe is relative to my expectations. 

[tdawg87]

Altuve will be brought forth in Houston square, stripped naked and flogged.

[tdawg87]

That's hot 

[Blarg]

I'm guessing that luring free agents to play for the Astros might be a difficult task the off season. 

[Chuck]

37 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

Not sure how the commissioner is going to handle this but I’m sure he’s going to try to protect the reputation and integrity of the league. He has to put on his MLB ambassador hat and soften the blow with an across the board league wide warning for all teams. The PED era (bad press) is finally behind us so he’s going to try to kill this new issue ASAP. He’ll do some  superficial punishments that won’t hurt anyone. 

Well you can say that potentially other teams have done it, but until proven guilty it's just speculation. 

The Astros HAVE been caught so there should and I'm almost certain there will be severe consequences as a result. 

[Pancake Bear]

20 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Well you can say that potentially other teams have done it, but until proven guilty it's just speculation. 

The Astros HAVE been caught so there should and I'm almost certain there will be severe consequences as a result. 

They’re going to be made an example of. I’m skeptical any other team is doing this to anything close to the same degree. But even if they are, the Astros are a perfect team to take it on the chin. They need someone to get hit hard to dissuade other teams for continuing or even starting up something similar. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Calzone 2 said:

Not sure how the commissioner is going to handle this but I’m sure he’s going to try to protect the reputation and integrity of the league. He has to put on his MLB ambassador hat and soften the blow with an across the board league wide warning for all teams. The PED era (bad press) is finally behind us so he’s going to try to kill this new issue ASAP. He’ll do some  superficial punishments that won’t hurt anyone. 

The commissioner's office has already issued a league wide warning .... What's in question now is whether or not the Astros continued to do it...

If he ends up doing what's you're saying then he's hurting the league and making a mockery of the integrity talk.  This is where Kenesaw Mountain Landis was the right man for the job... He took a hardline stance and ended careers even after they were found innocent in a court of law...  There was no grey area, no talk of yeah but they were found innocent, it was point blank - do this, pay the ultimate price.

Superficial penalties issued with an eye towards "protecting the game" will only serve to undermine it's credibility IMO.  You were on record saying the Skaggs situation would or should (don't remember how you worded it), result in severe penalties.  It's odd you see a top to bottom effort to defraud the entire league as something that need only be addressed superficially.

[ten ocho recon scout]

To piggyback IP (sorry about the weight!), and again I hate to sound overdramatic, but I think this is right next to the black sox scandal. Obviously one was to win, the other to lose. But both were to make money, and tainted a WS.

And like Sean Regan said, ai dont see how this is less than Pete Rose. Rose in essence did insider trading... he used inside knowledge to bet. But there was never (unless Im wrong) any evidence he played any role in the bets, as far as the outcome of any game.

To be fair, everyone cheats. Everyone steals signs. This goes way beyond that. 

Was it houston who hacked St Louis, or vice versa?

[Inside Pitch]

54 minutes ago, Blarg said:

I'm guessing that luring free agents to play for the Astros might be a difficult task the off season. 

Well, to be fair.. They don't have any room to do that.

[T.G.]

Vice versa 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

I don’t believe this in the slightest.  These will be harsh penalties than come with suspensions For management, fines to the ownership, loss of picks and international monies.  

While I believe it would make a joke of MLB to handle it this way I wouldn't be surprised to see them do exactly what he said.  This has less to do with what I think is right and wrong vs my genuine belief Manfred is shifty commish.

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

The commissioner's office has already issued a league wide warning .... What's in question now is whether or not the Astros continued to do it...

If he ends up doing what's you're saying then he's hurting the league and making a mockery of the integrity talk.  This is where Kenesaw Mountain Landis was the right man for the job... He took a hardline stance and ended careers even after they were found innocent in a court of law...  There was no grey area, no talk of yeah but they were found innocent, it was point blank - do this, pay the ultimate price.

Superficial penalties issued with an eye towards "protecting the game" will only serve to undermine it's credibility IMO.  You were on record saying the Skaggs situation would or should (don't remember how you worded it), result in severe penalties.  It's odd you see a top to bottom effort to defraud the entire league as something that need only be addressed superficially.

 

3 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

To piggyback IP (sorry about the weight!), and again I hate to sound overdramatic, but I think this is right next to the black sox scandal. Obviously one was to win, the other to lose. But both were to make money, and tainted a WS.

And like Sean Regan said, ai dont see how this is less than Pete Rose. Rose in essence did insider trading... he used inside knowledge to bet. But there was never (unless Im wrong) any evidence he played any role in the bets, as far as the outcome of any game.

To be fair, everyone cheats. Everyone steals signs. This goes way beyond that. 

Was it houston who hacked St Louis, or vice versa?

Both of you are correct in that cheating is an inexcusable offense but it involves both Players and Management. Manfred will have his hands full with the MLBPA. Remember how quick they jumped in to protect Hamilton. They're a brotherhood no matter what the circumstances. Will the players even cooperate with the investigators? He'll tread lightly and try to appease everyone. After all, it's the integrity of HIS entire league he's trying to protect. Look how he's handled the opioids situation. He's proposing testing and that's good but he probably has talked to Angels officials privately and told them to clean it up. He probably alerted all teams to keep a watchful eye on the opioids crisis.

[Tank]

2 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Not sure how the commissioner is going to handle this but I’m sure he’s going to try to protect the reputation and integrity of the league. He has to put on his MLB ambassador hat and soften the blow with an across the board league wide warning for all teams. The PED era (bad press) is finally behind us so he’s going to try to kill this new issue ASAP. He’ll do some  superficial punishments that won’t hurt anyone. 

Not a chance they go lightly on this one.

[Claude]

Just now, Tank said:

Not a chance they go lightly on this one.

In 2015 the NFL fined the Patriots $1M and took away 2 draft picks for deflating footballs. They also suspended Tom Brady for four games. They've won two Super Bowls since then.

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, Calzone 2 said:

In 2015 the NFL fined the Patriots $1M and took away 2 draft picks for deflating footballs. They also suspended Tom Brady for four games. They've won two Super Bowls since then.

how does that relate to anything being discussed here?