Angels fire Doug White and Josh Paul

[ukyah]

here's a question: if white represented a transition to the analytics approach to pitching, and we bailed after one year, then does this represent the Angels taking a step back in development?

there's an extremely fair position to be taken that this represents an overall negative in the organization's future.

[rafibomb]

I honestly hope we keep Jeremy Reed as our hitting coach but that's not looking likely to happen.

[kevinb]

4 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Eppler is most to blame for this horrific season and yet he is the only one Arte kept.

Do we see Eppler lose his job at the end of all this is the question? These moves make sense in terms this team performed horribly this year, do I think it is the coaches faults? No the GM selected the players. But we are going to be in a weird season next year if Eppler stays he chooses another manager and this team doesn't make the playoffs could we be in line for 4 managers in 4 seasons with a new GM coming in next year and that GM getting to hand pick their manager? This organization aren't making a ton of smart moves as of late. 

[bruin5]

For Eppler to fire these two it’s obvious he was not happy with their work and is owning that decision (as well he should).  I would assume the other coaches are being kept around to a) see if Maddon wants them, or more likely b) return them to other roles in the organization (like Gallegos had before he became 3B coach).  

I don’t see White’s firing as representing retrenchment from analytics, but rather recognizing that White just wasn’t good at his job.  

[Inside Pitch]

15 minutes ago, Stradling said:

They will hire Ray Searage because he and Cole have a good relationship from their Pittsburgh days.  (I have no idea if they will hire him nor do I know if they have a good relationship). 

Someone prolly went to lunch with them recently and prolly knows...

[bruin5]

2 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Do we see Eppler lose his job at the end of all this is the question? These moves make sense in terms this team performed horribly this year, do I think it is the coaches faults? No the GM selected the players. But we are going to be in a weird season next year if Eppler stays he chooses another manager and this team doesn't make the playoffs could we be in line for 4 managers in 4 seasons with a new GM coming in next year and that GM getting to hand pick their manager? This organization aren't making a ton of smart moves as of late. 

If he chooses Maddon it kind of becomes an insurance policy for Eppler because he and Arte would be on the same page in terms of that hire.  I don’t see Maddon getting fired after one year and, with a good free agent signing or two we should be a respectable team.  What Eppler is not getting a leash on anymore is doing experimental hires (I’m sure he pretty much hired the entire coaching staff) and failing. 

[kevinb]

Just now, bruin5 said:

If he chooses Maddon it kind of becomes an insurance policy for Eppler because he and Arte would be on the same page in terms of that hire.  I don’t see Maddon getting fired after one year and, with a good free agent signing or two we should be a respectable team.  What Eppler is not getting a leash on anymore is doing experimental hires (I’m sure he pretty much hired the entire coaching staff) and failing. 

No I get that but say the Angels don't make playoffs next year we have another avg to bad year. It would seem Eppler would be out, or at least the manager would have more say than the GM which shouldn't be the case. I am just curious how this plays out. 

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, ukyah said:

here's a question: if white represented a transition to the analytics approach to pitching, and we bailed after one year, then does this represent the Angels taking a step back in development?

there's an extremely fair position to be taken that this represents an overall negative in the organization's future.

I think it may just be a communication thing.  He wasnt able to get through to guys -- my guess is they continue to push those ideas but try to find someone better able to get them across -- keep in mind they have been doing this stuff in the minors too and guys showed much greater success there..   

I genuinely believe Ausmus' wishy washy no personality persona might be why he's on his way out too.   

[Hubs]

I am surprised by Paul, but I could see Maddon or whomever they hire wanting to hire his own staff.

I think Ebel is a prime candidate to return...and maybe Nagy. Nagy was a good pitching coach.

[Vladdy Issues]

17 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

So Ebel and Butcher back in, Maddon at the helm and  scioscia as the bench coach.

they also need to bring back Fredo... and I don't mean Chris Cuomo

[bruin5]

1 minute ago, Hubs said:

I am surprised by Paul, but I could see Maddon or whomever they hire wanting to hire his own staff.

I think Ebel is a prime candidate to return...and maybe Nagy. Nagy was a good pitching coach.

I want to get Ebel back just to get Gallego off of 3B.  

[ukyah]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

I think it may just be a communication thing.  He wasnt able to get through to guys -- my guess is they continue to push those idea but try to find someone better able to get them across -- keep in mind they have been doing this stuff in the minors too and guys showed much greater success there..   

I genuinely believe Ausmus' wishy washy no personality persona might be why he's on his way out too.   

all the stuff white did with the machines that show grip, spin rate, throwing from 90 feet instead of 60, yada yada yada... i'd hope that this is implemented to even greater degree and that the only change is in the ability to both communicate it effectively to the players and to know when a player is not listening or cooperating. the article about doug white that had the players just tuning him out should have resulted in an ass kicking by white and ausmus. i think this is some of the reasoning behind bailing on everybody after one year.

[floplag]

I don't think its a regression from analytics at all, but perhaps more a case of White not being able to see what guys did right and trying to force them into his mold instead of helping them improve within their own.  Not everyone is going to throw the same way after all.   Its normal or natural to struggle a bit on call up i guess but we saw guys struggle more than expected as soon as he got his hands on them... makes you wonder if he wasnt a little too tinker happy. 

[Second Base]

22 minutes ago, Stradling said:

They will hire Ray Searage because he and Cole have a good relationship from their Pittsburgh days.  (I have no idea if they will hire him nor do I know if they have a good relationship). 

Ray Searage is a freakin wizard! The Angels would be fortunate to hire him.

[Dick Enberg]

Just now, StandOutRealty said:

they also need to bring back Fredo... and I don't mean Chris Cuomo

Think "Fredo" would be a big help with some of our young infielders, especially if/when simmons is gone. 

[Stradling]

My guess is Eppler and Arte talked, and Eppler saw the writing on the wall as it relates to having to make some moves and so Eppler is making those moves.  Do I think Arte is making these moves?  No.  Do I think he let Eppler know that he wasn’t happy with the results, absolutely.  A huge part of being a good leader is fixing mistakes you have made.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

Ray Searage is a freakin wizard! The Angels would be fortunate to hire him.

Yep.  

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, ukyah said:

all the stuff white did with the machines that show grip, spin rate, throwing from 90 feet instead of 60, yada yada yada... i'd hope that this is implemented to even greater degree and that the only change is in the ability to both communicate it effectively to the players and to know when a player is not listening or cooperating. the article about doug white that had the players just tuning him out should have resulted in an ass kicking by white and ausmus. i think this is some of the reasoning behind bailing on everybody after one year.

Agree 100%, his comments came off as entirely too passive for me.   I think it was @Dochalothat asked....  HOW did you see them not doing things and yet not doing something about it.   That has stuck with me from the moment I read it.

I mean, you don't have to be Terry Collins and obsess over shit but FFS, you can't just let guys tune you out completely and let it go unchallenged.

[Pancake Bear]

Not a huge surprise on White. Despite injuries, the year the pitching staff had made a scapegoat necessary. White admitting there had been communication issues made him a dubious bet to return. 

Paul is a bit more unexpected, but it might be them deciding that the new manager should bring in his own guy. Or there could be stuff we don’t know about. Honestly, I don’t know how fans would even assess whether a bench coach is good at his job or not. 

One thing seems obvious, 2020 will be a year of serious change. A team like the Angels that tanks when trying to stay competitive? Big changes will happen. I’m glad Eppler isn’t gone. Despite what some wankers on here feel, he hasn’t actually had enough time to implement his plan from the colossal mess this team was in when he arrived. Anyone who thinks differently is naive about how bad things were and how much time it takes to fix that. To change course to win-now mode before now (and to go too hard in that direction now) would be disastrous. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

You're welcome! Back in May, June and July ..

 

But, but, but, it takes 2 seasons to make it right...

Robles and Bedrock were the only two and Robles needed innings. He was not a product of White!

Bedrock was injured and at the time there was plenty of time for him to revert.

Doug White offered zero longterm and brought nothing to the game. 

 

[2112]

4 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

You're welcome! 

 

But, but, but, it takes 2 seasons to make it right...

Robles and Bedrock were the only two and Robles needed innings. He was not a product of White!

Bedrock was injured and at the time there was plenty of time for him to revert.

Doug White offered zero longterm and brought nothing to the game.

I think Nagy fixed Robles.  The Mets wouldn't allow him to throw one of pitches, and the Nagy did.  

I really wondered about Barria.  It looked like there was no direction from anyone when he was pitching.  

[Jay]

Holy crap heads are rolling.

 

[Jay]

58 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

Eppler is most to blame for this horrific season and yet he is the only one Arte kept.

Arte is making Eppler watch as all his staff are eliminated...

Question is will Arte be merciful and eliminate Eppler as well.

 

[Puget Sound Angel]

Black Monday is now Black Tuesday.

[Jay]

40 minutes ago, Stradling said:

My guess is Eppler and Arte talked, and Eppler saw the writing on the wall as it relates to having to make some moves and so Eppler is making those moves.  Do I think Arte is making these moves?  No.  Do I think he let Eppler know that he wasn’t happy with the results, absolutely.  A huge part of being a good leader is fixing mistakes you have made.  

That's as good a guess as any.