San Bernardino Mass Shooting

[Redondo]

Good point. Where do you draw the line?

 

But in this case since it was terrorist attacks on civilians I would think it would be a special one time only thing.

 

Don't believe phone records show text messages. Isn't that one of  things they are trying to get?

[nate]

Text messages show as long as they aren't iMessage.

 

And there is nothing in this that says it will only happen for terrorist attacks.  Once you do it a judge can order it any time.  When you are arguing what is exceptional circumstances in court that is a grey area.

 

What is to stop someone for asking for it in a bullying case?  A divorce case?  Drunk driving?  Suspected texting and driving?

[Glen]

When does it ****ing end? When do the police or FBI or whomever the **** stop asking for more ways to invade our privacy, to monitor our actions, under the guise of protecting us?

Answer: never. It never ends.

[mtangelsfan]

This is a no-brainer.  There is a price to have a free society.  Giving up rights to gain a feeling of safety is the wrong thing.

 

There are plenty of things we could do to be safer.  We could ban all guns everywhere (even the police).  We could ban alcohol.  We could have a 9:00 curfew for everyone.  We could allow the police to arrest anyone they want and interrogate them anyway they want.  They could search any house/business/school any time they want.

 

All these things would make the country safer.

[gotbeer]

I wonder if people realize that Apple just gave all trollers the ultimate gift.  If you don't like someone, or just want to go for the lolz.  Just guess their password 11 times. 

[nate]

Meh, not a huge deal.  It can be reversed by syncing with the computer it is setup on.

[Mark68]

How many degrees of separation are we willing to live with? They have already caught the killers. So now they get into the phone they might get someone with secondary involvement. Then the phones of those people become fair game? And somewhere along the way pretty much everyone can now become a person of interest because someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew this guy once called you and the secret court can give warrants and they see it all as perfectly legit. **** them all right in the ear.

They caught the killers. They also caught the guy who supplied the weapons. What exactly do the Feds need to access from his phone that they can't already get access to without endangering all iPhone users' right to privacy?

 

For Apple, this is a smart business decision. All the positive PR notwithstanding (and trust me, Trump asking for a boycott of Apple, from his iPhone, is POSITIVE PR for Apple), they conduct business in countries like China and Russia. You better believe that if Apple allows the US government access to their American customers' phones that the Russian and Chinese governments will demand the same access.

[Tank]

Text messages show as long as they aren't iMessage.

 

And there is nothing in this that says it will only happen for terrorist attacks.  Once you do it a judge can order it any time.  When you are arguing what is exceptional circumstances in court that is a grey area.

 

What is to stop someone for asking for it in a bullying case?  A divorce case?  Drunk driving?  Suspected texting and driving?

 

if there is a criminal case for bullying, drunk driving, or texting and driving, i have no problem with the police using someone's phone in the process of gathering evidence.

 

a divorce case is more of a civil issue, so i wouldn't feel comfortable unless there's evidence laws were broken.

 

i think it's important to note here that we're talking about cracking the phone of a mass murderer, not someone random from the mall. cracking the phone in a criminal case doesn't upset me.

[Guest]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[mrwicked]

f*ck the fbi and f*ck the nsa.

[nate]

if there is a criminal case for bullying, drunk driving, or texting and driving, i have no problem with the police using someone's phone in the process of gathering evidence.

 

a divorce case is more of a civil issue, so i wouldn't feel comfortable unless there's evidence laws were broken.

 

i think it's important to note here that we're talking about cracking the phone of a mass murderer, not someone random from the mall. cracking the phone in a criminal case doesn't upset me.

 

No we are talking about setting a precedent where the government can use the courts to invade the privacy of any of us.

[mtangelsfan]

if there is a criminal case for bullying, drunk driving, or texting and driving, i have no problem with the police using someone's phone in the process of gathering evidence.

 

a divorce case is more of a civil issue, so i wouldn't feel comfortable unless there's evidence laws were broken.

 

i think it's important to note here that we're talking about cracking the phone of a mass murderer, not someone random from the mall. cracking the phone in a criminal case doesn't upset me.

 

What about a "possible" terrorist?  Would you be ok with that?  What about someone who is anti-government?  What if it was a thief?  How about a drug user?

 

Where do you start/stop?  Has the federal government ever shown an inkling that it will show restraint?

[Tank]

What about a "possible" terrorist?  Would you be ok with that?  What about someone who is anti-government?  What if it was a thief?  How about a drug user?

 

Where do you start/stop?  Has the federal government ever shown an inkling that it will show restraint?

 

i realize it's fraught with problems. there would obviously need to be some very, very narrow limits on how/when it's used, and by whom. But if it could help prevent a disaster, what do you do?

 

i'm very torn between the right to privacy and the right to prevent a catastrophy, and i'm not really sure where to draw the line on this.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Tank

[mtangelsfan]

Fair enough. 

 

For me it is always to err on the side of personal freedoms.  The government has a nasty track record of taking them away and I would rather not give them more just to feel a tiny bit safer.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I agree there are constitutional issues with this, so if it doesnt go through, i can understand the reasoning. But in terms of where to draw the line, it goes two ways. Lets say someone is kidnapped...should we not be able to track the phone?

Just food for thought, because ive been on both sides of it. Theres some companies that will assist us, some wont. Needless to say its frustrating when say someone is robbed at gunpoint, or carjacked (both happen several times a week) or even something as simple as a stolen car, and the phone with the gps is taken, and said phone provider wont give us a location

[HaloMilliVanilli]

I would turn my phone over willingly if it helped to stop a massacre or follow the trail to keep others safe.  The privacy of my cell phone contents pales in comparison to potential loss of life.

[arch stanton]

Let's be clear about what they want. They already have access to every call made and received on that phone. They have all the cloud data from before the last backup. They screwed up on the reset and now want Apple to bail them out.

[ten ocho recon scout]

So what are they trying to get out of it? Again, im totally clueless because i havent followed the story, and would probably lost anyway because i dont know how to use 90 percent of what my phone does. But id think if they already have his calls and texts anything usefull is gone. Whatsapp is the one where the good stuff is though, that wouldnt be on the call log

[ABC]

I would turn my phone over willingly if it helped to stop a massacre or follow the trail to keep others safe.  The privacy of my cell phone contents pales in comparison to potential loss of life.

 

Giving access to your personal data is problematic. There are already instances of individual govt agents keeping tabs on exs, wives, etc. without proper cause.The list is longer than you think.

 

There need to be higher protections for the country more than ever because it only takes one dirty bomb by a group of assholes to attack tens of thousands on US soil. I don't know where the line should be but either way you go, you're kinda f'd as a society as a whole. 

[Blarg]

I would turn my phone over willingly if it helped to stop a massacre or follow the trail to keep others safe.  The privacy of my cell phone contents pales in comparison to potential loss of life.

 

Would you turn over your neighbors cell phone? It really doesn't matter what you will personally do to prevent a disaster/murder/terrorist plot, that is what you want to do, what most people are willing to do. But you are giving away other peoples rights to information privacy that they are not consenting to release and for good reason but it doesn't involve any of the scenarios you have described.

[RallyMo]

I would turn my phone over willingly if it helped to stop a massacre or follow the trail to keep others safe.  The privacy of my cell phone contents pales in comparison to potential loss of life.

 

That's completely irrelevant to this case. Seriously.

[gotbeer]

Let's be clear about what they want. They already have access to every call made and received on that phone. They have all the cloud data from before the last backup. They screwed up on the reset and now want Apple to bail them out.

 

But do they?  I think they probably have every apple backup.  But what if they were using programs like Skype?  What if their main mode of communication was through some weird ass forum like Angelswin.com?  And if they were using the Tor browser, then the only evidence may be on the phone. 

[arch stanton]

But do they?  I think they probably have every apple backup.  But what if they were using programs like Skype?  What if their main mode of communication was through some weird ass forum like Angelswin.com?  And if they were using the Tor browser, then the only evidence may be on the phone.

Evidence of what? They already know who did the killing.

[gotbeer]

Evidence of what? They already know who did the killing.

 

If they are part of something bigger.  If they had handlers.  Who they were communicating with. 

[mtangelsfan]

If they are part of something bigger.  If they had handlers.  Who they were communicating with. 

 

I wonder if this was a smaller tech company whether you would feel the same.