Should Scioscia be retained at the end of the season?

[ScottT]

As far as current managers go, only Showalter has a deal through 2018. His extension was for half as long.  I don't think any other manager has any kind of option for 2017.  Only two or three do for 2016.   

[tdawg87]

 I heard the same arguments about Mickey Hatcher.  So has our hitting improved dramatically with Eppard?  The answer is no.  

 

Well, lets look at the facts.

 

In 2010 under Mickey Hatcher, the Angels were 19th in the majors in runs scored, 23rd in OPS, 23rd in AVG, 27th in OBP, and 28th in AVG with RISP.

 

In 2011 under Mickey Hatcher, the Angels were 17th in the majors in runs scored, 15th in AVG, 21st in OBP, and 17th in OPS. Much improved over 2010, but still pretty mediocre.

 

In 2012, from opening day until Hatcher's firing, the Angels had scored 134 runs in 37 games, on pace for about 586 over a full season. They were in the bottom 10 in almost every offensive category through that stretch. As soon as Eppard took over, the offense showed some immediate improvement, finishing May averaging 4.1 runs per game. Then in June, the Angels completely turned it on, scoring the 4th most runs in the majors for the month, as well as leading the majors in AVG, OBP, and OPS. July was no different, as the Angels were tied for the league lead in runs, and lead in OPS, while finishing in the top 5 in AVG, OBP, and HR. August was again more of the same. The Angels were 3rd in runs, 2nd in AVG and OBP, and 1st in OPS. They were also 2nd in HR. September saw them fall back a bit, but they still managed to finish in the top 15 in every category except HR. Overall, the team finished 4th in runs, 1st in AVG, and 4th in OPS. 2012, and 2009, are the only two years in which a Mike Scioscia managed team finished in the top 5 in Runs, AVG, OBP, and OPS. It took Mickey Hatcher a decade to do that. It took Eppard 3/4 of a season.

 

This year, the offense has not been great, but they are still top 10 offense in the majors. They are in the top 10 in HR, Runs, Hits, AVG, OBP, and OPS. This is in spite of Pujols being a gimp and Hamilton sucking ass.

 

So, has the offense "dramatically improved" under Eppard? Well, no, but it has certainly improved.

[Bruce Nye]

Well, lets look at the facts.

 

In 2010 under Mickey Hatcher, the Angels were 19th in the majors in runs scored, 23rd in OPS, 23rd in AVG, 27th in OBP, and 28th in AVG with RISP.

 

In 2011 under Mickey Hatcher, the Angels were 17th in the majors in runs scored, 15th in AVG, 21st in OBP, and 17th in OPS. Much improved over 2010, but still pretty mediocre.

 

In 2012, from opening day until Hatcher's firing, the Angels had scored 134 runs in 37 games, on pace for about 586 over a full season. They were in the bottom 10 in almost every offensive category through that stretch. As soon as Eppard took over, the offense showed some immediate improvement, finishing May averaging 4.1 runs per game. Then in June, the Angels completely turned it on, scoring the 4th most runs in the majors for the month, as well as leading the majors in AVG, OBP, and OPS. July was no different, as the Angels were tied for the league lead in runs, and lead in OPS, while finishing in the top 5 in AVG, OBP, and HR. August was again more of the same. The Angels were 3rd in runs, 2nd in AVG and OBP, and 1st in OPS. They were also 2nd in HR. September saw them fall back a bit, but they still managed to finish in the top 15 in every category except HR. Overall, the team finished 4th in runs, 1st in AVG, and 4th in OPS. 2012, and 2009, are the only two years in which a Mike Scioscia managed team finished in the top 5 in Runs, AVG, OBP, and OPS. It took Mickey Hatcher a decade to do that. It took Eppard 3/4 of a season.

 

This year, the offense has not been great, but they are still top 10 offense in the majors. They are in the top 10 in HR, Runs, Hits, AVG, OBP, and OPS. This is in spite of Pujols being a gimp and Hamilton sucking ass.

 

So, has the offense "dramatically improved" under Eppard? Well, no, but it has certainly improved.

 

 

 

What happens when you take Trout's stats out?  I remember a time under Hatcher's tenure when all 9 starting players had BAs over .300.  Did he get stupid afterward? 

[tdawg87]

If we give Hatcher blame for the terrible offenses, then he deserves credit for the good ones. 2009 was a great offense and it's clear that whatever Mickey was doing to keep those guys on track was working.

 

Then 2010 happened. Then 2011. Then the absolutely horrid April through mid-May start in 2012. It's pretty easy to see why he was made a scapegoat. And it's not like the offense has gotten worse since he left. In fact, it has gotten better. Is that because of Eppard, or perhaps because of a lack of Hatcher? Who knows? But the evidence is there.

[halomatt]

If we give Hatcher blame for the terrible offenses, then he deserves credit for the good ones. 2009 was a great offense and it's clear that whatever Mickey was doing to keep those guys on track was working.

 

Then 2010 happened. Then 2011. Then the absolutely horrid April through mid-May start in 2012. It's pretty easy to see why he was made a scapegoat. And it's not like the offense has gotten worse since he left. In fact, it has gotten better. Is that because of Eppard, or perhaps because of a lack of Hatcher? Who knows? But the evidence is there.

True.  It seems to me the offense got better when we got better hitters. 

 

I was one of the 30% who voted that he be retained, mostly out of spite for angry curmudgeons and the like. 

 

In all seriousness, I find it difficult to quantify the manager's effect, either positive or negative on their team.  As soon as there is more than anecdotal, highly subjective evidence that he is a poor manager, I might change my mind.  In my opinion, anything else is simply ranting for the sake of being heard.

 

This team is performing poorly and the only real evidence I can find points squarely to the pitching staff and the defensive malaise. In the larger scope of things, it could just be "one of those years."

[maximus p]

Off the top of my head:

1.  Not pinch running for Morales on 8-1-12 in Texas

2.  Using relief pitchers in "roles" instead of situations (it seems he may be learning on this one)

3.  Batting Aybar leadoff

4.  Bourjos hip "injury" keeping him out of the batting lineup (really, WTF was that all about?)

5.  Batting underperforming veterans in the top part of the llineup (I know it would be tough to put Pujols down in the lineup, but the manager's job is to put the best lineup out there regardless of paycheck)

6.  Not batting the game's best leadoff hitter in the leadoff position (I love P-Bo at the top this year, but he's not there, it should be Trout)

[Homebrewer]

What happens when you take Trout's stats out?  I remember a time under Hatcher's tenure when all 9 starting players had BAs over .300.  Did he get stupid afterward? 

Mickey was never a bright man. His players hit for a while, and while they did he kept his job, and when they didn't he lost his job.

Scioscia had some success, and while it worked he had a cushy job with ZERO press, fan, or media pressure.

Probably the cushiest manager job in the majors, and with a lifetime contract.

4 years no results...hell ,just keeping Blanton in the rotation this long would be enough to can his ass in most places...

Scioscia has to go yesterday. Period.

[mtangelsfan]

and not the guy who gave Blanton the two year contract?

 

LOL

[YouthofToday]

Option #3: explore trading Scioscia. If he says no threaten to resign Napoli as his starting catcher in 2014.

[mtangelsfan]

I voted for Sosh to leave, but it's absolutely moronic to blame him for the pitching.  That is pretty much entirely on Dipoto.

[Homebrewer]

and not the guy who gave Blanton the two year contract?

 

LOL

1) Scioscia was sticking with bad players WAY TOO LONG into seasons, long before Dipoto ever dreamed of having this teams GM job.

This is a Scioscia MO that has been around for a decade.

2)The majority of pitchers that get out from under Scioscia and Butcher, improve. Some of them have improved greatly.

My educated guess, from experience, is that if Blanton was with another team, he would be more effective, or he would be in the bullpen...he SURE wouldn't be run out there every 5 days.

 

Lastly, just in case you missed the title, this thread is about Scioscia.

[robblin17]

well sorry if I still remember the four out of five division titles into that. I remember following the Angels for 20 years and only seeing 3 division titles and most of the time they had losing seasons! How many losing season have Scioscia had in his tenure??? I believe this year will be his third.

You realize that the AL West was one of the WORST divisions in baseball through those years, right? How'd we do in the playoffs?

[SmallSampleSize]

I really question if some of you are actually Angel fans.

 

Of course I voted Yes.

 

Scioscia is the single best chance we have at getting high draft picks and restocking the farm.

 

Shame on all of you who voted No!

 

Monsters.

[Vladfan]

The only people who over-value Scioscia more than the myopic nutswingers around here, are the so called "baseball people"..the experts that don't watch him manage every day.

He is going to go somewhere else and win multiple WS???

I don't buy that for one second. Sadly, the only way the nutswingers will ever be convinced that Scioscia is in ANY WAY responsible for the failures that have been mounting and compounding around here, is for him to go somewhere else...and watch the same things happen wherever he ends up.

Unfortunately, the biggest and loudest over-valuer of Scioscia is a guy named Arte.

I'm talking about the baseball guys who are in the trenches with him day in and day out.

The myopic nutswingers are the ones that think that he is unable to manage this team anymore. The players are to blame here.... Not MS.

[bloodbrother]

The players, Mike Scioscia and Dipoto are all to blame for this mess of a team

[ScottT]

Mike Scioscia shouldn't get the credit he got earlier, either.  It is the nature of the job.  Managers get too much credit and too much blame. Not sure why the Arte Moreno bought into the credit part of it, though.  

[robblin17]

I really question if some of you are actually Angel fans.

Of course I voted Yes.

Scioscia is the single best chance we have at getting high draft picks and restocking the farm.

Shame on all of you who voted No!

Monsters.

At first I was like what!? And then I was like YES!

[martini14810]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while and now feel the need to chime in.  I am tired of people pointing to the WS win as the reason we should keep MS.  If you are going to give him credit for the wins, why are you so relunctant to give him blame for the losses I don't get it.  Sure you can say he's not to blame for injuries or poor fielding or poor hitting or poor pitching performance but then you give him credit for the good fielding, hitting and pitching when they won.  I look at MS now compared to then.  I don't see the intensity, the movement of runners.  I see a manager who let's pitchers go far too long, when they don't have it, and who plays favorites with his players despite their performance, That to me shows a manager who doesn't want to get too vested in the game and go home and rest because he didn't make any tough decisions or hurt his pets feelings.  I think it's time for a manager who wants to shake things up and go balls to the wall, because tis just isn't working.

[Angel Oracle]

The WS was eons ago. Geez, I hope that isn't a good reason to keep him.

Even Bob Brenly won a WS, and is long since no longer a manager.

Even Charlie Manual won one.

[mp170.6]

I've been hard on Scioscia in the past, so I'll try to be as fair as possible.  I do think he and the Angels should go their separate ways this offseason, and here are my reasons why:

 

1.  He doesn't understand the how's and why's behind his successes and failures.  2002 was a total fluke in that he hasn't been able to motivate a team anywhere close to that level of play.  His playoff teams since 2002 have generally been lifeless.  His teams have been marred with inexplicable defensive and offensive inconsistencies.  Examples:

 

Defensive Errors by Year:

2013: Tied for MLB most

2012: 11th fewest

2011: 10th fewest

2010: 24th fewest

2009: 8th fewest

2008: 10th fewest

 

Offensive Runs Scored:

2013: 8th best

2012: 4th best

2011: 10th best

2010: 23rd best

2009: 4th best

2008: 17th best

2007: 6th best

 

You'd think a manager with years of experience under his belt would be able to detect what works and what doesn't -- and then be able to carry the successes over into the following seasons.  But no, Scioscia's teams go from being among the best to complete garbage in a matter of months.  I'm not saying it's entirely his fault but his job is to consistently produce a winning team and he's failing to get that done.

 

2.  He's suffering from fatigue, ADHD, or some other malady in the later innings of games.  And I don't say this lightly, something is wrong and I feel sorry for him.  He used to be really attentive and manage a bullpen well, even when the pitchers weren't exceptionally great.  More and more he's slow to respond, or even show a reaction to what's happening on the field.  Sometimes he is caught by the cameras staring into outer space. 

 

3.  There's a growing inverse relationship between team payroll and reaching the playoffs.  Enough said. 

 

4.  Loyalty to coaching staff and players continues to be a problem.  The worst thing a person can do is shield their friends and colleagues from the truth.  I don't think Scioscia has it in him to tell any player or coach that their level of competency is no longer good enough for MLB. 

 

5.  Team meetings and pep talks are utterly useless when it comes to the scoreboard and division standings.  Enough said.

 

6.  Scioscia is too proud to change his ways or try a different approach.  He doesn't take criticism well, which says a lot after fourteen years as manager. 

[Bashbrothers]

The WS was eons ago. Geez, I hope that isn't a good reason to keep him.

Even Bob Brenly won a WS, and is long since no longer a manager.

Even Charlie Manual won one.

 

Not the only sport where someone is living off a title either.  Dumars of the Pistons (GM) has been awful since they won the title and they haven't fired him because of the title.

[Torridd]

Yes, a lot of things have gone wrong this season, but I'd say 95% has been the defense, pitching, and Pujols/Hamilton.

 

If we get a half decent performance from most of these things we're at least in the Wild Card hunt.

 

Scioscia has his faults, but I think those who want him out just want to make a change for change's sake.

 

Does anyone think another manager would get Blanton to pitch better or Pujols/Hamilton to hit better?

[Glen]

I voted for Sosh to leave, but it's absolutely moronic to blame him for the pitching.  That is pretty much entirely on Dipoto.

 

 

Agree with this.  I think it's time for fresh blood in the manager seat and I'm even inclined to have Dipoto replaced after next year, pending the results. 

[Jason]

Jesus couldn't mange this team to success so it doesn't matter. With that said the trend of this team has been heading south for several years now and a fresh face wouldn't hurt but I'm not sure who would be a good replacement.

[stormngt]

its kind of like when a player is waived.  The waiving team pays the entire salary under contract, minus the league minimum if another teams picks him up!

 

No.. it isn't like that, nor is it even" kinda like" that. Unless you are saying that Scioscia's stock has sunk to the point of a Kazmir or GMJ, which I assume you arent.

If Arte can't work a deal that doesn't have him paying 70-80% of such a "highly coveted" and brilliant baseball field general, either Arte is in the wrong business, or Scioscia isnt all that.

Let me educate you. Player and manager contracts are completely different and totally unrealated animals. Nobody outside of the Angels FO and their lawyers even knows exactly what is in Scioscia's contract. "Reported to be" is as close as anyone outside the org can get.

Arte has paid for bad contracts before, and this is another boneheaded mistake that is going to cost him some money...just not as much as you think...not even close.

 

 

Please do not be condescending with me.  Have you been involved with contracts, negotiations, or even buy outs on a professional level?  I have!

 

I guarantee you this:  If ARTE fires Scioscia he will be buying off a minimum of 50% of his contract.  A minimum!  You see its called  a contract.  Arte is obligated by LAW to pay Scioscia another $25 million (after this year) to manage the Angels.  If he fires Scioscia and Scioscia decides to retire, he will have to get Scioscia the entire 25 million.  However, that obligation would only occur if Scioscia decides not to manage any other team during the next five years.    Scioscia would probably prefer to pursue other options during the next five years than sitting on his ASS so he would negotiate a buy out with Arte.  

 

Most buy outs are around 50-70 value of the contract.  So I am willing to bet if Scioscia is fired the buy out would be around 12-15 million.  Scioscia would be walking away from 13-15 million, but he is willing to do that because the buy out would allow him to negotiate with other teams.

 

The only way Arte avoids the buy out is if he trades Scioscia to another team.  Maybe that might happen.....that I can't tell you.