Should Scioscia be retained at the end of the season?

[stormngt]

1) Scioscia was sticking with bad players WAY TOO LONG into seasons, long before Dipoto ever dreamed of having this teams GM job.

This is a Scioscia MO that has been around for a decade.

2)The majority of pitchers that get out from under Scioscia and Butcher, improve. Some of them have improved greatly.

My educated guess, from experience, is that if Blanton was with another team, he would be more effective, or he would be in the bullpen...he SURE wouldn't be run out there every 5 days.

 

Lastly, just in case you missed the title, this thread is about Scioscia.

 

Who are these pitchers that vastly improved after leaving Scioscia?

 

I know Rodney.  Who else?  If I am not mistaken, the Angels under most of Scioscia's tenure has had great pitching (the last 12 months as an exception).

 

So who are these pitchers?  Or are you just making things up?

[stormngt]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while and now feel the need to chime in.  I am tired of people pointing to the WS win as the reason we should keep MS.  If you are going to give him credit for the wins, why are you so relunctant to give him blame for the losses I don't get it.  Sure you can say he's not to blame for injuries or poor fielding or poor hitting or poor pitching performance but then you give him credit for the good fielding, hitting and pitching when they won.  I look at MS now compared to then.  I don't see the intensity, the movement of runners.  I see a manager who let's pitchers go far too long, when they don't have it, and who plays favorites with his players despite their performance, That to me shows a manager who doesn't want to get too vested in the game and go home and rest because he didn't make any tough decisions or hurt his pets feelings.  I think it's time for a manager who wants to shake things up and go balls to the wall, because tis just isn't working.

 

I don't prop scioscia just because of the WS.  I prop him that he is clearly the best manager the Angels have ever had.  This includes the last four years.  You see since I am an Angel fan since 1972, I have followed the team when we were god awful.  It would be exciting to be only 10 games back as I remember being 20 games back.  He is the only manager in Angel history to have a career winning record.  He only has three losing seasons in his tenure.  Before Scioscia seasons like this was the norm.  Not the exception.  That is why I support Scioscia.

[ettin]

I just hate to see AW.com members fighting among themselves....

[ELEVEN]

I have been reading this forum for quite a while and now feel the need to chime in.  I am tired of people pointing to the WS win as the reason we should keep MS.  If you are going to give him credit for the wins, why are you so relunctant to give him blame for the losses I don't get it.  Sure you can say he's not to blame for injuries or poor fielding or poor hitting or poor pitching performance but then you give him credit for the good fielding, hitting and pitching when they won.  I look at MS now compared to then.  I don't see the intensity, the movement of runners.  I see a manager who let's pitchers go far too long, when they don't have it, and who plays favorites with his players despite their performance, That to me shows a manager who doesn't want to get too vested in the game and go home and rest because he didn't make any tough decisions or hurt his pets feelings.  I think it's time for a manager who wants to shake things up and go balls to the wall, because tis just isn't working.

Best first post ever.

[nate]

A new voice because the current one obviously isn't working.

[AngelArcher]

Those calling for MS to go away, let's pretend he just got fired and replaced with a new manager of your choice.  

 

What, exactly, do you think would improve on the team, and why?  Will the new manager make the guys hit better situationally?  Will the new manager make the guys stop making errors?  Will the new manager make the pitchers hit their marks better?

 

I'm genuinely curious what you can come up with using reason instead of lighting your hair on fire and blaming this and that and the other thing.  

Yeah this is all silliness, lets just keep doing more of the same. The last four years have been joyous. Scioscia deserves to stay.

[Mudville]

What happens when you take Trout's stats out?  I remember a time under Hatcher's tenure when all 9 starting players had BAs over .300.  Did he get stupid afterward? 

 

What happens when you take Guerrero's stats out of the 2004-2009 Angels?

 

Hatcher never was accused of getting stupid afterward.

[Mudville]

A new voice because the current one obviously isn't working.

 

Sure helped in Boston last season.

[nate]

Sure helped in Boston last season.

 

It doesn't mean go hire an idiot like Bobby Valentine.

 

When things go wrong for this long, change is necessary.

 

Someone new might be able to get to the players better, prepare the team better, work with the personnel better, hire better coaches, etc.

 

It is not like they can get any worse.

[AngelArcher]

cezero,

 

Why do you think he should stay? Seriously?

 

I think a new manager with his choice of coaches who are all on the same page with the GM is what's best going forward. Scioscia's style no longer works with the current roster and I don't think he and the GM see eye to eye. And no, I'm no longer on the Dipoto wagon, but am willing to give him a chance with a manager of his choice.

[nate]

I think it is funny though, one of the things that I have always agreed with Scioscia on is the one thing nobody here agrees with.  I think that the catcher has a big impact on the performance of the pitcher.  A smart and prepared catcher will call the right pitches, block balls, frame pitches, etc.  A league average catcher might not.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Mike's had good defensive teams during his tenure.  Does he get the credit then and not deserve to take flack when his teams are bad defensively?  When they were aggressive on the basepaths and good at small ball he got credit but now they make some horrible mistakes on the bases so shouldn't he take some of the blame?  Mike doesn't deserve all of the blame and he isn't the one making the mistakes on the field but after 4 years of underperformance I see nothing wrong with going in a new direction. 

[Lifetime]

if we are assessing that Mike is the problem, or in large part the problem, we have to be at odds with his philosophy/approach. When Mike got credit for the aggressive baserunning and good defense, etc., he wasn't getting credit for the execution but rather for the approach he preached. No matter what the philosophy is, the players have to execute. The ability to execute is on the players, not the manager. So if Mike deserves credit for the aggressive baserunning, good defense, etc., he deserves the credit for the philosophy behind it, not the execution of the plan. Vice versa, if the current defensive struggles, etc. are due to a poor philosophy or corporate approach, then Mike shares a large portion of the "blame". Has there been some kind of large philosophical or approach change over the years with Scioscia or is it simply a matter of the players not being able to perform and execute at those levels consistently anymore? Since the roster is drastically different in the last few years, it seems most likely that the onus is on the players and not some change in philosophy/approach. Has Scioscia's philosophy/approach changed? Is he doing something drastically different now? Do you really honestly think that a different manager with a different voice and a different philosophy/approach is going to make any difference in the performance of this team as assembled? 

[nate]

I agree with your assertion and in my opinion you also proved my point.  Scioscia is not fit to manage a team like this.  These aren't players that match his style.

 

Like I said in another thread.  It is like having an offensive coordinator that specializes in the spread offense being asked to run a pro set.

[Lifetime]

and I would say that's an ignorant comment about Scioscia's "style" and how the players fit. There is no reason the makeup of this team cannot fit inside the same set of fundamental approaches that previous teams did and there is no reason to believe that they would perform at a higher rate under a different "style" or set of fundamental approaches. The struggles with the Angels are not caused by the "style" not fitting the players. This group of players just isn't as good at executing the game. This pitching staff on a whole isn't close to the quality we've had in the past during successful seasons. A couple of players we rely on heavily for offensive production aren't producing near acceptable levels. None of that has anything to do with the players not fitting with Scioscia's style.

[nate]

Teams of this makeup seem to have worked with other organizations.

 

Scioscia succeeded with a couple power hitters and a bunch of contact hitters.  Now he has a lot of high swing and miss power hitters.  Also he had a deep bullpen with defined roles.  Not any more.

 

It is asinine to assume that the game can only be played with one style and any player can fit into it.

[YouthofToday]

We should not be comparing the club to what has happened in the past. We should be comparing ourselves to the current market of ideas, managers and other realities.

To say Scioscia is the best manager we have ever had isn't really relevant or helpful.

I also do not know enough about what's happening behind the scenes to make a judgment call on his future status.

[Lifetime]

Teams of this makeup seem to have worked with other organizations.

 

Scioscia succeeded with a couple power hitters and a bunch of contact hitters.  Now he has a lot of high swing and miss power hitters.  Also he had a deep bullpen with defined roles.  Not any more.

 

It is asinine to assume that the game can only be played with one style and any player can fit into it.

It's asinine to think that a manager of a professional baseball team can't adjust some of his approach/philosophies based on personnel. Tell me Nate, what parts of Scioscia's style or philosophies don't fit the makeup of the current team? 

[nate]

Hit and run, contact play, squeeze play, aggressiveness at the plate.  Defined bullpen roles, matchups.

 

Anyway, fine.  It isn't Scioscia.  You defended Hatcher, Reagins, Bane and now Dipoto.  So the Angels just have bad luck but they have a great coaching staff and front office.

 

That works for one or maybe two seasons.  Not four.

[nate]

Also, we are stuck with these players, Scioscia obviously can't coach them to the playoffs, why not try someone else?

[HaloFan85]

It's time for an overhaul of the coaching staff from top to bottom.

[Mark68]

Sure helped in Boston last season.

Apparently it's helping in Boston THIS season.

[Lifetime]

Hit and run, contact play, squeeze play, aggressiveness at the plate.  Defined bullpen roles, matchups.

 

Anyway, fine.  It isn't Scioscia.  You defended Hatcher, Reagins, Bane and now Dipoto.  So the Angels just have bad luck but they have a great coaching staff and front office.

 

That works for one or maybe two seasons.  Not four.

there is nothing about this team makeup that should not be able to work with those basic fundamentals of baseball. The failure of the contact play is not due to a poor matchup with player skill sets. 

 

It isn't Scioscia. It wasn't Hatcher.

 

Wait, I defended Reagins, and now Dipoto? 

[Turd Ferguson]

Can anyone elighten me on what, exactly, is the philosophy/approach of this team right now?

 

It seems to me that there is a vast philosophical schism between Manager and GM in roster composition and approach to the game. One of them has to go, this ain't working. 

[nate]

You can't hit and run with a swing and miss player.  You don't need to matchup when you have a power hitter in a power hitting situation.  Scioscia seems to feel the need to do it anyway.

 

Yes when people wanted to fire Reagins you were against it, same with Dipoto.

 

it is nobodies fault.  Got it.

 

People seem to think Scioscia is great for what he did.  All I care about is what he is doing.  How much longer will he ride on prior success.