Perry is a very not good GM

[Inside Pitch]

11 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Can’t say that I feel strongly that he’s good or bad.  

Seems pretty obvious he was catering to his manager the first two years and has had to deal with Arte being Arte since.

It's almost like we need a system to gauge Arte's involvement when grading GMs.

[James]

Perry is the first GM in awhile that seems focused on building the farm back to where it must be to compete. 

I can agree or disagree with the points of the OP but the underlying truth is, this is what happens when you aren't consistently developing talent. The GM is forced to make moves that he may not even be the biggest fan of but still makes it due to immediate need with zero internal options. 

Lastly, when one says things like, "failed frontline starters" and then mention guys who no GM would consider frontline starters or places Ohtani leaving on the GM when the world knows that wasn't on the GM or complains about extensions that didn't impact the organizations ability to spend or states that a falling out with a manager that couldn't find another job in baseball is a big deal, it kind of negates other viewpoints that may indeed be accurate. 

[Angels 1961]

Ho.pefully Hunter will replace Perry after this season

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, James said:

Lastly, when one says things like, "failed frontline starters" and then mention guys who no GM would consider frontline starters or places Ohtani leaving on the GM when the world knows that wasn't on the GM or complains about extensions that didn't impact the organizations ability to spend or states that a falling out with a manager that couldn't find another job in baseball is a big deal

Considering the only reason he became available for Arte was due to his having had a "falling out" with possibly the best GM in MLB history Theo Epstein, I found that comment to be slightly humorous.  I realize it's just a figure of speech but the Angels situation was less of a "falling out" as it was a straight firing. Minasian didn't hire him, that was 100% Arte.  If Maddon is butthurt that's his problem, he hasn't helped himself any with his comments about next time he will make sure that blah blah blah...  And the bit about hiring Nevin to fire him.  Is there anyone walking the face of the planet who believes that the Angels would had made Nevin the manager long term if not for the unsettled ownership situation?

Nevin was a caretaker.  Given the strange circumstances I don't think Nevin hurt himself in that capacity.

[Blarg]

Every GM knows he will be fired or moved up the management chain. In the Angels organization there is no VP of Baseball Operations and that makes being a GM a more volatile position and forces them to cater to the owner moreso than other clubs. You could say being the GM of the Angels is the hardest job in baseball.

Grading Minasian's work is, as @Inside Pitch mentioned, a balance between what he can or can't do through Moreno's ownership. And those grades really require at least five years to see if what he is doing creates a long term organizational stability or a continuation of the last ten years of driving all success through free agency acquisitions instead of drafting and development. 

Eppler got the ball rolling, there is Fletcher, Walsh, Ohtani, Thaiss, Marsh, Adell and Rengifo in trade. But all of those guys are years apart in development, Ohtani being the unicorn. 

Minasian boosted that group through draft and trade getting O'Hoppe, Neto, Moniak, and Schanuel. And they are playing and developing under the best coaching staff since Scioscia's group. The results may take time to see if Minasian hit big on the lottery or got a few scratcher payouts to buy more tickets.

Minasian is working hard to rebuild internally with some decent draft pick positions and put the brakes on wasting them on free agency, making some other team stronger through our draft picks. Is he successful? Ask me in 2026 because that's a five plus one time frame where the team should be complete and competitive.  If they are not then you can say Minasian failed. 

 

 

[UndertheHalo]

I think Nevin showed pretty well actually.  The problem wasn’t Nevin, it was the org - and that’s not a secret.  It’s just the mainstream consensus that the deal with the Angels is that it’s a retard organization. 

[Inside Pitch]

10 hours ago, Blarg said:

Every GM knows he will be fired or moved up the management chain. In the Angels organization there is no VP of Baseball Operations and that makes being a GM a more volatile position and forces them to cater to the owner moreso than other clubs. You could say being the GM of the Angels is the hardest job in baseball.

Grading Minasian's work is, as @Inside Pitch mentioned, a balance between what he can or can't do through Moreno's ownership. And those grades really require at least five years to see if what he is doing creates a long term organizational stability or a continuation of the last ten years of driving all success through free agency acquisitions instead of drafting and development. 

Eppler got the ball rolling, there is Fletcher, Walsh, Ohtani, Thaiss, Marsh, Adell and Rengifo in trade. But all of those guys are years apart in development, Ohtani being the unicorn. 

Minasian boosted that group through draft and trade getting O'Hoppe, Neto, Moniak, and Schanuel. And they are playing and developing under the best coaching staff since Scioscia's group. The results may take time to see if Minasian hit big on the lottery or got a few scratcher payouts to buy more tickets.

Minasian is working hard to rebuild internally with some decent draft pick positions and put the brakes on wasting them on free agency, making some other team stronger through our draft picks. Is he successful? Ask me in 2026 because that's a five plus one time frame where the team should be complete and competitive.  If they are not then you can say Minasian failed. 

The Maddon seasons will go down as one of the biggest wastes of time in Angels history.  A nostalgia hire that had them spin their wheels while their manager tried to wage his personal war against the way MLB is being played. 

[AngelsFaninGA]

24 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I think Nevin showed pretty well actually.  The problem wasn’t Nevin, it was the org - and that’s not a secret.  It’s just the mainstream consensus that the deal with the Angels is that it’s a retard organization. 

I follow a pretty good dynasty baseball resource and while he's pretty org-agnostic 98% of the time, the one org he specifically trashes for their player development is the Angels. 

[UndertheHalo]

2 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I follow a pretty good dynasty baseball resource and while he's pretty org-agnostic 98% of the time, the one org he specifically trashes for their player development is the Angels. 

It’s known.  And even if it’s exaggerated (it probably is) just the perception damages the angels in their trade efforts.  Etc.  not a good situation.  

[UndertheHalo]

Like look at how dodgers and Astros prospects are viewed.  Many - most of them have proven to be massively overrated.  The dodgers in particular have had a bunch guys they’ve sold astronomically high on just based on the aura of the org.  Thats a thing that’s been going on with them for years now.  It’s the opposite with the Angels.  They have to overpay or just aren’t able to complete trades.  

Edited April 10 by UndertheHalo

[UndertheHalo]

And top prospects not resulting in good or even solid major league players isn’t a particularly unusual thing.  It’s just that for some orgs they seem to get way, way more value out of their prospects when it comes to trade value based on all the hype they successfully jin up.  

[samwum]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Every GM knows he will be fired or moved up the management chain. In the Angels organization there is no VP of Baseball Operations and that makes being a GM a more volatile position and forces them to cater to the owner moreso than other clubs. You could say being the GM of the Angels is the hardest job in baseball.

Grading Minasian's work is, as @Inside Pitch mentioned, a balance between what he can or can't do through Moreno's ownership. And those grades really require at least five years to see if what he is doing creates a long term organizational stability or a continuation of the last ten years of driving all success through free agency acquisitions instead of drafting and development. 

Eppler got the ball rolling, there is Fletcher, Walsh, Ohtani, Thaiss, Marsh, Adell and Rengifo in trade. But all of those guys are years apart in development, Ohtani being the unicorn. 

Minasian boosted that group through draft and trade getting O'Hoppe, Neto, Moniak, and Schanuel. And they are playing and developing under the best coaching staff since Scioscia's group. The results may take time to see if Minasian hit big on the lottery or got a few scratcher payouts to buy more tickets.

Minasian is working hard to rebuild internally with some decent draft pick positions and put the brakes on wasting them on free agency, making some other team stronger through our draft picks. Is he successful? Ask me in 2026 because that's a five plus one time frame where the team should be complete and competitive.  If they are not then you can say Minasian failed. 

 

 

Eppler also brought in Detmers, Canning, and Sandoval. 

I also don't agree with the notion Minasian is working hard to rebuild internally. He was hired under the objective of trying to make the playoffs or even win the World Series during Ohtani's arb years. Due to his failures in talent evaluation and roster construction, a team that was trying hard to win with a top payroll actually got worse, and finished with 77, 73, and 73 wins. 

Trying to win and failing is not the same as rebuilding. I'm also excited about O'Hoppe and Neto, but even if they pan out -- Minasian clearly has no fucking idea how to build a competitive ballclub. 

[Angel Oracle]

On the pitching front, how many key MLB pitchers have avoided the dreaded TJS?

That seems to be becoming a vanishing breed.

Seems that pitching nowadays should always be a main focus (not only one of course) in building a stronger farm?   Hence one of the main reasons for the 2021 draft only pitchers strategy?

Edited April 10 by Angel Oracle

[samwum]

 

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Sigh.

I was pretty against signing him when they did. I've also said repeatedly he doesn't need to do what he did with the Dodgers to hold value.  The notion that he can't pitch to his contract is inane -- the dude is only making 13 mil per.  Since Fangraphs has been brought up often in this thread, FG put the value of a win at roughly 8.5 mil the last time they looked at it in 2022, https://blogs.fangraphs.com/what-are-teams-paying-per-war-in-free-agency/. With the cost at 8.5 a player need only be worth 1.5 fWAR to live up to his contract.  So basically if he puts up 3 fWAR combined this year and next he would have surpassed the value of his contract.

He was crap last year.  If he gives them innings and posts a 4.5 ERA this year he'll be valuable enough.

 

I think this is a flawed argument. I understand the theoretical WAR/$ conversion rate, but Tyler Anderson generated 1.1 WAR with a 5.50 ERA. Perry couldn't find a SP to give the Halos a 5.50 ERA for... I don't know, free?

Also, why on Earth did the Angels need to spend $39mm on a back-end SP anyways? They already have 3 young, cost-controlled pitchers suited for back-end rotation roles. 

To me that signing is a clear signal that Perry can't identify pitching talent, and also he somehow does not understand how to structure a competitive rotation.

[samwum]

17 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

On the pitching front, how many key MLB pitchers have avoided the dreaded TJS?

That seems to be becoming a vanishing breed.

Seems that pitching nowadays should always be a main focus (not only one of course) in building a stronger farm?   Hence one of the main reasons for the 2021 draft only pitchers strategy?

Pitching depth is important, but at the end of the day building a great rotation is unlikely to happen through just drafting and developing prospects. 

The top teams use the trade or free agent market to acquire their big aces more often than you might expect.

The Astros got Verlander and Cole through trade. The Rangers got Scherzer, Eovaldi, and DeGrom through free agency and trade. The Orioles just went and got their ace Burnes through trade. The Dodgers just went and got their new ace Glasnow through a trade, and Ohtani and Yamamoto in free agency. The Phillies drafted Nola, but got Wheeler through free agency. The Twins got Pablo Lopez through a trade. Rays got their ace Eflin through free agency. Mariners got Castillo through a trade. Royals got Ragans through a trade. Kevin Gausman has bounced around. List kind of goes on and on.

[BTH]

I’d say, compared to other GMs, Perry has done a bad job.

But he’s also dealing with a more difficult owner than 28(?) other GMs.

Edited April 10 by BTH

[Jeremiah]

48 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

It’s known.  And even if it’s exaggerated (it probably is) just the perception damages the angels in their trade efforts.  Etc.  not a good situation.  

I don’t think the significance of this can be overstated. Whether it’s true or not, the negative perception of the Angels as an organization is out there. I think the Angels need to tear it down completely and rebuild from the foundation up. They need to restock their farm with high draft picks and international signings that can create a steady group of “next man up” players. They probably cannot do that with Arte and Carpino in place. Until a baseball ops person with real authority to implement a plan is there, the team will probably continue to operate in the 75-85 win area, barely in the periphery of the playoffs.

[Stradling]

58 minutes ago, samwum said:

 

I think this is a flawed argument. I understand the theoretical WAR/$ conversion rate, but Tyler Anderson generated 1.1 WAR with a 5.50 ERA. Perry couldn't find a SP to give the Halos a 5.50 ERA for... I don't know, free?

Also, why on Earth did the Angels need to spend $39mm on a back-end SP anyways? They already have 3 young, cost-controlled pitchers suited for back-end rotation roles. 

To me that signing is a clear signal that Perry can't identify pitching talent, and also he somehow does not understand how to structure a competitive rotation.

Haha. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, samwum said:

I think this is a flawed argument. I understand the theoretical WAR/$ conversion rate, but Tyler Anderson generated 1.1 WAR with a 5.50 ERA. Perry couldn't find a SP to give the Halos a 5.50 ERA for... I don't know, free?

So, you want to tout FG's methodology so long as it supports whatever POV you are making.  Got it.   Don't look now but I responded to someone else talking about whether or not he can live up to his contract -- cost/value was the argument and I addressed that directly.

Also you mockingly made reference to "shiny ERA" in this thread when talking about Minasian's motivation to sign him but here you're attempting to use it to downplay the return on 13mm.  I think ERA is pretty useless myself as it tells us absolutely nothing other than the end result. It's a very low information statistic which is why Im assuming you wanted to put it on Minasian.

Look, I'm not a Tyler Anderson "fan", I wasn't in favor of signing him but do I believe he's capable of a 4.50 "shiny" ERA?  yes.  His value comes from his ability to eat innings, something Angels SPs have been extremely awful at.  My argument is that a 2 fWAR pitcher at 13 Mil per is an easy yes.

1 hour ago, samwum said:

Also, why on Earth did the Angels need to spend $39mm on a back-end SP anyways? They already have 3 young, cost-controlled pitchers suited for back-end rotation roles. 

To me that signing is a clear signal that Perry can't identify pitching talent, and also he somehow does not understand how to structure a competitive rotation.

You're guilty of being completely sure of a situation without any actual insight what was available to him be it funds or via trade.  

This is the FA crop of pitchers signed to larger deals last season

TOTALS							67	$1,114,966,666	$16,641,294
AVERAGE							2.16	$35,966,667	$16,641,294
PLAYER (31)	POS.	AGE	BATS	THROWS	FROM	TO	YRS	DOLLARS	AVERAGE SALARY
Jacob deGrom QO	SP	34.4	L	R	NYM	TEX	5	$185,000,000	$37,000,000
Carlos Rodon QO	SP	30.0	L	L	SF	NYY	6	$162,000,000	$27,000,000
Justin Verlander	SP	39.8	R	R	HOU	NYM	2	$86,666,666	$43,333,333
Kodai Senga	SP	29.8	L	R	JPN	NYM	5	$75,000,000	$15,000,000
Taijuan Walker	SP	30.2	R	R	NYM	PHI	4	$72,000,000	$18,000,000
Jameson Taillon	SP	31.0	R	R	NYY	CHC	4	$68,000,000	$17,000,000
Chris Bassitt QO	SP	33.8	R	R	NYM	TOR	3	$63,000,000	$21,000,000
Zach Eflin	SP	28.6	R	R	PHI	TB	3	$40,000,000	$13,333,333
Tyler Anderson QO	SP	32.8	L	L	LAD	LAA	3	$39,000,000	$13,000,000

IYO, how many of them are "legit front line" SPs?  Other than Eflin who was a career 95 ERA+ (4.36 FIP), guy from 2016-2022 nobody was in the Angels price range.  Anderson BTW managed a 108 ERA+(4.18 FIP), from 2016-2022..  And before you try to argue the peripherals were a lot better...  

ZE: 1.295 WHIP, 9.5 H/9, 1.4 HR/9, 2.2 BB/9, 7.5 K/9 -- 659.1 IP
TA: 1.245 WHIP. 8.7 H/9. 1.3 HR/9. 2.5 BB/9, 7.6 K/9 -- 802.1 IP

Don't look now but Anderson actually edges him out in most of the peripherals.  If we change the data range to include Elfin and Anderson's 2023 where they were polar opposites, they are STILL damn near clones of each other numbers wise.

Find another hill to die on.

[James]

3 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Ho.pefully Hunter will replace Perry after this season

Yes, lets bank on a guy who has zero experience in this role. Only time in current position to learn, he is learning from a guy some of you think is not a capable gm. No doubt he would be the best option. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, samwum said:

Eppler also brought in Detmers, Canning, and Sandoval. 

Eppler also brought in Julio Teheran, 31 IP 10.5 ERA for 9 million.  Matt Harvey, 59 IP 7.09 ERA 11 million.  Trevor Cahill 102 IP 5.98 ERA 9 million.

I feel both GMs moved the franchise forward from where JD left it, but let's not pretend one guy had an eye for FA pitching talent while the other doesn't.
 

[James]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

So, you want to tout FG's methodology so long as it supports whatever POV you are making.  Got it.   Don't look now but I responded to someone else talking about whether or not he can live up to his contract -- cost/value iwas the argument and I addressed that directly.

Also you mockingly made reference to "shiny ERA" in this thread when talking about Minasian's motivation to sign him but here you're attempting to use it to downplay the return on 13mm.  I think ERA is pretty useless myself as it tells us absolutely nothing other than the end result. It's a very low information statistic which is why Im assuming you wanted to put it on Minasian.

Look, I'm not a Tyler Anderson "fan", I wasn't in favor of signing him but do I believe he's capable of a 4.50 "shiny" ERA?  yes.  His value comes from his ability to eat innings, something Angels SPs have been extremely awful at.  My argument is that a 2 fWAR pitcher at 13 Mil per is an easy yes.

You're guilty of being completely sure of a situation without any actual insight what was available to him be it funds or via trade.  

This is the FA crop of pitchers signed to larger deals last season

TOTALS							67	$1,114,966,666	$16,641,294
AVERAGE							2.16	$35,966,667	$16,641,294
PLAYER (31)	POS.	AGE	BATS	THROWS	FROM	TO	YRS	DOLLARS	AVERAGE SALARY
Jacob deGrom QO	SP	34.4	L	R	NYM	TEX	5	$185,000,000	$37,000,000
Carlos Rodon QO	SP	30.0	L	L	SF	NYY	6	$162,000,000	$27,000,000
Justin Verlander	SP	39.8	R	R	HOU	NYM	2	$86,666,666	$43,333,333
Kodai Senga	SP	29.8	L	R	JPN	NYM	5	$75,000,000	$15,000,000
Taijuan Walker	SP	30.2	R	R	NYM	PHI	4	$72,000,000	$18,000,000
Jameson Taillon	SP	31.0	R	R	NYY	CHC	4	$68,000,000	$17,000,000
Chris Bassitt QO	SP	33.8	R	R	NYM	TOR	3	$63,000,000	$21,000,000
Zach Eflin	SP	28.6	R	R	PHI	TB	3	$40,000,000	$13,333,333
Tyler Anderson QO	SP	32.8	L	L	LAD	LAA	3	$39,000,000	$13,000,000

IYO, how many of them are "legit front line" SPs?  Other than Eflin who was a career 95 ERA+ (4.36 FIP), guy from 2016-2022 nobody was in the Angels price range.  Anderson BTW managed a 108 ERA+(4.18 FIP), from 2016-2022..  And before you try to argue the peripherals were a lot better...  

ZE: 1.295 WHIP, 9.5 H/9, 1.4 HR/9, 2.2 BB/9, 7.5 K/9 -- 659.1 IP
TA: 1.245 WHIP. 8.7 H/9. 1.3 HR/9. 2.5 BB/9, 7.6 K/9 -- 802.1 IP

Don't look now but Anderson actually edges him out in most of the peripherals.  If we change the data range to include Elfin and Anderson's 2023 where they were polar opposites they are damn near clones of each other numbers wise.

Find another hill to die on.

And Efflin was never an option. He said that he was heartbroken when the Rays didnt draft him. Its where he wanted to be, he wasnt coming to the west coast for that same money. 

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, James said:

And Efflin was never an option. He said that he was heartbroken when the Rays didnt draft him. Its where he wanted to be, he wasnt coming to the west coast for that same money. 

Good info.  

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I follow a pretty good dynasty baseball resource and while he's pretty org-agnostic 98% of the time, the one org he specifically trashes for their player development is the Angels. 

It's more a case of player hyper-advancement in Anaheim since about 2017.  

The lack of adding organizational depth from 2010-2016, while trying to "win now" has been brutal.

Thanks O'Arte!

[HaloMilliVanilli]

As evidenced by consistency of pitching injuries, we all know that a MLB staff has to begin any season with 8-10 arms that can be thrown into the fray.  Anderson was not the free agent we wanted, but was the one we could afford.  He gave our rotation a floor.  He also allows for some of the younger guys to not be rushed, which was also a point suggested by the OP.  We need/needed both of these qualities that Anderson brings.