OC Register: Former manager Joe Maddon repeats frustration in how Angels’ front office handled analytics

[AngelsWin.com]

Former Angels manager Joe Maddon continued on his crusade against the way analytics have flooded the game of baseball, including expressing frustration in the way he and the Angels front office worked together before he was fired in June.

Maddon, 68, spoke for more than an hour to Jayson Stark, a Hall of Fame writer, and Doug Glanville, a former player and current analyst, in a podcast released on Tuesday morning by The Athletic.

Many of Maddon’s comments were about the general state of analytics in the game, echoing points he made the day he was fired and again last month in an interview with the Tampa Bay Times. Maddon believes that modern front offices have taken too much of a role in on-field decisions, by managers, coaches and players, burdening them with information that’s not necessary. In his interview with The Athletic, Maddon specifically mentioned “Perry and Alex,” referring to Angels general manager Perry Minasian and assistant general manager Alex Tamin.

“I’m not arguing against analytics and information,” Maddon said. “I’m arguing against the methods and the imposition with coaches. Because at the point it is right now … every day we’d get ready for the game and Perry and Alex would come in and they would start talking about how I should use the bullpen that night. Like I haven’t done that for the last 40 years. When you do that, when these people do that, the game becomes cloudy. You’re in the dugout, you know what you’d like to do. But these people have come downstairs prior to the game, and they load you with stuff that’s not necessarily helpful.”

Minasian did not immediately respond to a message about Maddon’s comments on Tuesday morning.

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Maddon first suggested that there was an issue over analytics between the manager’s office and the baseball operations department when he was fired in June, although he quickly backed off that to clarify that he was speaking about baseball in general, and not specifically the Angels. Before Maddon’s clarification, Minasian said that he didn’t feel that issue existed with the Angels.

“There was never any disconnect mentioned,” Minasian said. “Joe made the lineup. Joe made the pitching decisions. I’m a big believer that’s the manager’s job. It’s not the front office’s job. We present information. We have a great group. We have a hard working front office. Our (research and development) group is extremely detailed. Anyone who had a chance to sit in our advanced meetings would agree with that. Joe and I had a great relationship. If that was his perspective and he did say that, and I haven’t seen that, that was never expressed to me.”

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[BTH]

8 minutes ago, AngelsWin.com said:

every day we’d get ready for the game and Perry and Alex would come in and they would start talking about how I should use the bullpen that night. Like I haven’t done that for the last 40 years. When you do that, when these people do that, the game becomes cloudy. You’re in the dugout, you know what you’d like to do. But these people have come downstairs prior to the game, and they load you with stuff that’s not necessarily helpful.”

From my perspective, watching nearly every Angels game this season with the stats and recent bullpen usage accessible, Nevin’s bullpen management has been way better than Maddon’s.

I don’t know how much Nevin utilizes the info that Perry and Alex provide in the pre-game meetings, compared to how much Maddon utilized that info, but I’d imagine Nevin relies on it much more— with more success.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

Once again, dating back since Sven walked (or was told he was retiring)... Front office disconnect with the field of play, coaching issues, lack of adjustments by team, or, just head scratchers..

We've had 3 Managers (Ausmus, Maddon, Nevin). All look handtied at times or unsure of the situations within the game. We look at it and the outcome and say why would you do this, or that? However, we also heard rumblings there was a lack of communication within the Ausmus Group and that coaching staff and the Front Office (Not Perry's). We also, saw first hand a lack of production/adjustments made within the coaching staff and players with Maddon's Group (Yes, Perry's).

Now we have seen the motions of Nevin's group (though they all adjusted positions in the dugout when Maddon was termed) though certain aspects have been positive notably the bullpen and starters seem to be going deeper in the game (minus Detmer's start vs Houston & Mayers Start vs Yankees). Overall, either they are being pushed to go longer or are getting ahead in the count more often and getting ahead earlier in the count. Haven't watched the games. I'm just looking at the finality of outings with innings pitched. 

On the hitting side OBP has disappeared. (Trout, Ohtani and Ward aside). we don't get on base and we fail consistently in moving runners over? Is this the result of BAD BALLS in PLAY? Launch Angle? Being overly aggressive outside the zone while taking more pitches earlier in the count?

A bad team like the Tigers will skew the #'s and even the Yankees have been flailing lately but Houston is in our Division and we need to beat them consistently or even play them at .500% to have a chance at the playoffs!

[eligrba]

I'm frustrated with how the front office handled roster construction.  Based on those decisions, I have no doubt that the front office is handling analytics poorly.

Maddon is a diva.....but his points shouldn't be dismissed because he is a diva.

[Angel Oracle]

Maddon needs to just go away.

The balance between analytics and tradition will ultimately be found.

His diva attitude is tiresome.

I will say that Arte Moreno’s meddling has likely contributed to the FO/dugout disconnect.

Sell the team and let the new owner show how to stay out of important decisions except to sign off on them.

As I’ve said, Moreno is West Coast Peter Angelos.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[stormngt]

Too much info in someone's head and mistakes will be made

[BTH]

11 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

I will say that Arte Moreno’s meddling has likely contributed to the FO/dugout disconnect.

Oh, it definitely has.

Under Moreno, Angels GM’s haven’t had the ability to choose their own manager— with the exception to the one season of Ausmus.

Neither Reagins or Dipoto got to pick their own manager and were force-fed Scioscia.

Eppler was force-fed Scioscia for 2 years, got to pick Ausmus, and then was force-fed Maddon.

Minasian was force-fed Maddon for 1.25 years.

[Angel Oracle]

Arte Moreno and his big splashes 

Is there a support group to help him with that addiction?

[Stradling]

28 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Too much info in someone's head and mistakes will be made

And managers are paid to funnel information to the players in manageable portions. 

[Stradling]

21 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Arte Moreno and his big splashes 

Is there a support group to help him with that addiction?

Yea it’s somewhere else.  Try FB. 

[ukyah]

maddon is treating it like he's art howe in moneyball. this isn't a nerds vs jocks scenario. this is an, "i don't appreciate being directed" scenario, and maddon can retire if that's his attitude. i firmly believe that the rules should be adjusted regarding shifts, etc. to return elements to the game that have been abandoned. we understand much more about the game than we ever have, adjust the rules to reflect that new knowledge. i gave maddon more credit than he deserved, i thought he was old school adapting with new school and i know he likes to rep himself that way, but really he's just like every other dinosaur. fossilized.

i hope the new owner is someone well versed themselves on analytics. someone who knows what the game is. hires the right people and merges the departments functionally.

[Slegnaac]

Under Joe and Perry we had middle infielders regularly playing in the outfield.  To me that was a bigger fail than any analytics. 

 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Slegnaac said:

Under Joe and Perry we had middle infielders regularly playing in the outfield.  To me that was a bigger fail than any analytics. 

 

Not even a little. 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

I'm frustrated with how the front office handled roster construction.  Based on those decisions, I have no doubt that the front office is handling analytics poorly.

Maddon is a diva.....but his points shouldn't be dismissed because he is a diva.

or Joe had significant influence on the construction of the current roster.  Personally feel like this is a distinct possibility.  Like spending a bunch on the bullpen.  Which Minasian undid a portion of  once maddon was ousted.    

[HeavenlyHalos]

7 hours ago, Trendon said:

From my perspective, watching nearly every Angels game this season with the stats and recent bullpen usage accessible, Nevin’s bullpen management has been way better than Maddon’s.

I don’t know how much Nevin utilizes the info that Perry and Alex provide in the pre-game meetings, compared to how much Maddon utilized that info, but I’d imagine Nevin relies on it much more— with more success.

This reminded me of last season when Maddon kept turning to Cishek with runners on base despite him being terrible at stranding runners for the majority of the season. I think he turned it around a bit towards the end of the year when we were out of it but it cost us several games.

[eligrba]

1 minute ago, Docwaukee said:

or Joe had significant influence on the construction of the current roster.  Personally feel like this is a distinct possibility.  Like spending a bunch on the bullpen.  Which Minasian undid a portion of  once maddon was ousted.    

You put forth a convincing argument for me to give Minasian another chance.

[Docwaukee]

4 minutes ago, eligrba said:

You put forth a convincing argument for me to give Minasian another chance.

I really do hope it's true.  And part of the reason I think it is has to do with the the timeliness of Maddon's exit.  If it was purely Minasian giving Maddon a pretty crap roster in significant areas then he'd have had an argument that no amount of following the analytics would have staved off what will likely be a 90 loss season.  

[BTH]

1 hour ago, Docwaukee said:

or Joe had significant influence on the construction of the current roster.  Personally feel like this is a distinct possibility.  Like spending a bunch on the bullpen.  Which Minasian undid a portion of  once maddon was ousted.    

I’m not sure how much of an influence Joe had on roster construction in 2022, but it definitely felt like he did in 2021 with Cobb, Fowler, Jay, Cishek, and Quintana plus NL Central guys like Claudio, Watson, and Guerra.

[AngelsLakersFan]

10 minutes ago, Trendon said:

I’m not sure how much of an influence Joe had on roster construction in 2022, but it definitely felt like he did in 2021 with Cobb, Fowler, Jay, Cishek, and Quintana plus NL Central guys like Claudio, Watson, and Guerra.

When Minasian was brought on it was stated that leading the organization was going to be a group effort. Specifically that Perry was not always going to be the ultimate decider in the organization.

[Blarg]

Joe's interview is like him calling an intentional walk with bases loaded while the Angels were already down. He thinks he is coming off as a genius but it is not a resume builder. 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

When Minasian was brought on it was stated that leading the organization was going to be a group effort. Specifically that Perry was not always going to be the ultimate decider in the organization.

It was? I don’t remember hearing that.

Do you remember where they said that or who said it?

[bloodbrother]

Maddon is quite the crybaby

[ukyah]

1 hour ago, Trendon said:

It was? I don’t remember hearing that.

Do you remember where they said that or who said it?

i remember it. he said it in some of his initial gm interviews.

[IheartLA]

Most managers are just figure heads at this point, they're the fall guys the FO wants to redirect fan's anger to when things aren't going well. The roster construction might have manager input but they are now being hired more as middle men to link the FO and players. The skillsets they are looking for now are things like good communicators, leaders, etc not decision makers, innovators. It's resembling more like a manager job at a corporation where soft skills are important, the actual baseball decisions are being made by computers.

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, IheartLA said:

Most managers are just figure heads at this point, they're the fall guys the FO wants to redirect fan's anger to when things aren't going well. The roster construction might have manager input but they are now being hired more as middle men to link the FO and players. The skillsets they are looking for now are things like good communicators, leaders, etc not decision makers, innovators. It's resembling more like a manager job at a corporation where soft skills are important, the actual baseball decisions are being made by computers.

And Maddon supposedly had those soft skills, until he didn’t. He had a public reputation for being a motivator and communicator and having a feel for what a player needs.  None of those things were actually strengths anymore.