OC Register: Former manager Joe Maddon repeats frustration in how Angels’ front office handled analytics

[IheartLA]

12 hours ago, Stradling said:

And Maddon supposedly had those soft skills, until he didn’t. He had a public reputation for being a motivator and communicator and having a feel for what a player needs.  None of those things were actually strengths anymore. 

I think new regimes always want their own guy, Maddon is coming out pretty strong right now so there was obviously some friction that we weren't privy to at the time. If we didn't go on a historic losing streak he'd still be manager so it was more about results than anything he did. He was at least going to play out his contract. The problem with the Angels is obviously bigger than a manager, a GM, or any one player. Doubt anyone could have "motivated" this group to the playoffs.

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, IheartLA said:

I think new regimes always want their own guy, Maddon is coming out pretty strong right now so there was obviously some friction that we weren't privy to at the time. If we didn't go on a historic losing streak he'd still be manager so it was more about results than anything he did. He was at least going to play out his contract. The problem with the Angels is obviously bigger than a manager, a GM, or any one player. Doubt anyone could have "motivated" this group to the playoffs.

Hopeful countdown of Arte Moreno era: 25 games

[ten ocho recon scout]

39 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Hopeful countdown of Arte Moreno era: 25 games

 

[Docwaukee]

42 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Hopeful countdown of Arte Moreno era: 25 games

I'm reserving my excitement until I know who's next.    

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, IheartLA said:

I think new regimes always want their own guy, Maddon is coming out pretty strong right now so there was obviously some friction that we weren't privy to at the time. If we didn't go on a historic losing streak he'd still be manager so it was more about results than anything he did. He was at least going to play out his contract. The problem with the Angels is obviously bigger than a manager, a GM, or any one player. Doubt anyone could have "motivated" this group to the playoffs.

His contract was not getting renewed regardless of whether that losing streak happened or not. He refused to follow the data the front office supplied. Then he pulled the bullshit intentional bases loaded walk and probably lost his only ally in Arte. 

I don't think he is getting hired as a manager ever again. 

[cysomeawfulpitcher]

[ukyah]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:14 PM, Docwaukee said:

I'm reserving my excitement until I know who's next.    

warranted and wise, but the initial vague reports of those interested seems encouraging.

[Jay]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:14 PM, Docwaukee said:

I'm reserving my excitement until I know who's next.    

I'm running low on excitement as well.

 

[beatlesrule]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:15 PM, Blarg said:

His contract was not getting renewed regardless of whether that losing streak happened or not. He refused to follow the data the front office supplied. Then he pulled the bullshit intentional bases loaded walk and probably lost his only ally in Arte. 

I don't think he is getting hired as a manager ever again. 

The Angels won that game.

[Warfarin]

I'm not really sure what to think of Maddon as a manager.  He got a lot of praise, but he was also fortunate enough to work for probably the two best GMs / PBOs in the game (Andrew Friedman, Theo Epstein).  Those two guys created great rosters for Maddon to work with.  Maddon obviously had a positive impact, but I suspect he is not as good as his reputation indicated that he was.

I do think it was time for him to go.  I feel like Minasian is showing signs of being a good GM, as he appears to be helping the farm system grow and develop, and I feel Minasian should ultimately get to pick a manager he wants to work with.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Warfarin said:

I'm not really sure what to think of Maddon as a manager.  He got a lot of praise, but he was also fortunate enough to work for probably the two best GMs / PBOs in the game (Andrew Friedman, Theo Epstein).  Those two guys created great rosters for Maddon to work with.  Maddon obviously had a positive impact, but I suspect he is not as good as his reputation indicated that he was.

I do think it was time for him to go.  I feel like Minasian is showing signs of being a good GM, as he appears to be helping the farm system grow and develop, and I feel Minasian should ultimately get to pick a manager he wants to work with.

I agree some signs are there.  I want to believe that Joe had a lot of roster influence this year and last.  Maybe not the specific players this year, but perhaps that the primary focus should be on pitching.  Perhaps not as much as a I hope and either way, Minasian is likely responsible in some way for some very poor choices.  

He's got to do better with the 2023 roster (duh) but this could be a very weird off season now that the team is up for sale.  There are several scenarios that wouldn't totally surprise me.  

1.  They add no free agents or a couple mil here and there, minimize payroll and hope that internal candidates improve or emerge for various weak spots.   I consider this neither the most or least likely option.  They already dumped Iglesias salary and that very much could have been because Arte is selling off long term expense.  Or it could have been that Minasian was influenced to bring him back and took the chance to get rid of him and give himself more freedom for 2023.  Or a combo of both

2a.  They add but only 1 and max 2 year deals.  Payroll ends up in the 175-190 range.  They offer Ohtani a long term deal
2b.  same as 2a except they don't offer a long term deal to Shohei

Either of these two are the most likely imo.  

3.  Payroll expands some but again only to bring in guys on very short term or pillow type deals.  So Arte decides to take one last shot.  Probably less likely than #1

4.  Arte throws caution to the wind and goes all in for 2023.  Trades.  Free agents.  And leaves the mess for the next guy to clean up.  Least likely by a lot and almost not even worth mentioning. 

I will also say that I thought they would make a trade or two this off season.  Perhaps even a fairly substantial one.  Now I see that as unlikely.  Future talent is probably a decent asset when it comes time to value the team.  Perhaps a reason why they traded Marsh and why Adell could be next although you aren't getting anything close to an Ohoppe level talent for Adell right now.  There no way you trade Trout, and there's no way you could get someone to take Rendon's contract.       With his end of year resurgence, Fletch could be vulnerable.  And I'm not sure you could get anyone to pay Stassi 14m over the next two years.  You'd have to eat some of that and you'd get nothing in return.  They're screwed with Tepera although they might get a taker for 1yr of Loup.  

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

I agree some signs are there.  I want to believe that Joe had a lot of roster influence this year and last.  Maybe not the specific players this year, but perhaps that the primary focus should be on pitching.  Perhaps not as much as a I hope and either way, Minasian is likely responsible in some way for some very poor choices.  

He's got to do better with the 2023 roster (duh) but this could be a very weird off season now that the team is up for sale.  There are several scenarios that wouldn't totally surprise me.  

1.  They add no free agents or a couple mil here and there, minimize payroll and hope that internal candidates improve or emerge for various weak spots.   I consider this neither the most or least likely option.  They already dumped Iglesias salary and that very much could have been because Arte is selling off long term expense.  Or it could have been that Minasian was influenced to bring him back and took the chance to get rid of him and give himself more freedom for 2023.  Or a combo of both

2a.  They add but only 1 and max 2 year deals.  Payroll ends up in the 175-190 range.  They offer Ohtani a long term deal
2b.  same as 2a except they don't offer a long term deal to Shohei

Either of these two are the most likely imo.  

3.  Payroll expands some but again only to bring in guys on very short term or pillow type deals.  So Arte decides to take one last shot.  Probably less likely than #1

4.  Arte throws caution to the wind and goes all in for 2023.  Trades.  Free agents.  And leaves the mess for the next guy to clean up.  Least likely by a lot and almost not even worth mentioning. 

I will also say that I thought they would make a trade or two this off season.  Perhaps even a fairly substantial one.  Now I see that as unlikely.  Future talent is probably a decent asset when it comes time to value the team.  Perhaps a reason why they traded Marsh and why Adell could be next although you aren't getting anything close to an Ohoppe level talent for Adell right now.  There no way you trade Trout, and there's no way you could get someone to take Rendon's contract.       With his end of year resurgence, Fletch could be vulnerable.  And I'm not sure you could get anyone to pay Stassi 14m over the next two years.  You'd have to eat some of that and you'd get nothing in return.  They're screwed with Tepera although they might get a taker for 1yr of Loup.  

 

A couple of things... I can't see Arte doing anything long term except potentially extending Ohtani, but it's hard to imagine Ohtani even listening on an extension right now, I mean why would he?

The other thing is, all the rule changes we will see next year. I think it puts into question quite a bit when it comes to what types of results we'll expect to see from these guys. Someone like Fletcher is likely to turn back into a marginal depth piece while the dead pull power guys might see a huge bump. The value of defense in the middle infield is going to take a hit, so a guy like Velazquez likely doesn't sniff MLB next year. The results from our pitchers will change, and who is to say if it will be for better or worse or for which guys. It's really hard to project, IMO, beyond the expectation of some real variance from this years performance.

[BTH]

6 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The value of defense in the middle infield is going to take a hit, so a guy like Velazquez likely doesn't sniff MLB next year.

Huh?

If anything, the value of middle infield defense increases tremendously.

With the shift, teams could get away with infielders that had less range since it permitted you to put more infielders on a single side of the infield.

Now, without the shift, teams can’t get away with infielders that have less range and the infielders who can cover more range will be more valuable.

So that actually helps Fletcher and Velazquez.

[AngelsLakersFan]

8 minutes ago, Trendon said:

Huh?

If anything, the value of middle infield defense increases tremendously.

With the shift, teams could get away with infielders that had less range since it permitted you to put more infielders on a single side of the infield.

Now, without the shift, teams can’t get away with infielders that have less range and the infielders who can cover more range will be more valuable.

So that actually helps Fletcher and Velazquez.

Perhaps it works out the opposite of what I've imagined. The way I look at it is, you have at least one defender you are forced to deploy sub optimally. You have two choices, either you go hard after defense and chase that optimal level of performance with sheer increased defensive skills, or you accept it and fill that spot with a better hitter. This is the same question teams ask themselves when they consider adding more defense or more offense to right or left field.

What I can see happening is perhaps you do keep a guy like Velazquez and you pair him with a slugger who can fake it in the infield, then you just have Velazquez take the more challenging side of the infield at bat by at bat. Either way, your second best middle infielder has been moved down a notch on the defensive spectrum, which has historically meant that they were replaced by a better bat.

[Revad]

13 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

I agree some signs are there.  I want to believe that Joe had a lot of roster influence this year and last.  Maybe not the specific players this year, but perhaps that the primary focus should be on pitching.  Perhaps not as much as a I hope and either way, Minasian is likely responsible in some way for some very poor choices.  

He's got to do better with the 2023 roster (duh) but this could be a very weird off season now that the team is up for sale.  There are several scenarios that wouldn't totally surprise me.  

1.  They add no free agents or a couple mil here and there, minimize payroll and hope that internal candidates improve or emerge for various weak spots.   I consider this neither the most or least likely option.  They already dumped Iglesias salary and that very much could have been because Arte is selling off long term expense.  Or it could have been that Minasian was influenced to bring him back and took the chance to get rid of him and give himself more freedom for 2023.  Or a combo of both

2a.  They add but only 1 and max 2 year deals.  Payroll ends up in the 175-190 range.  They offer Ohtani a long term deal
2b.  same as 2a except they don't offer a long term deal to Shohei

Either of these two are the most likely imo.  

3.  Payroll expands some but again only to bring in guys on very short term or pillow type deals.  So Arte decides to take one last shot.  Probably less likely than #1

4.  Arte throws caution to the wind and goes all in for 2023.  Trades.  Free agents.  And leaves the mess for the next guy to clean up.  Least likely by a lot and almost not even worth mentioning. 

I will also say that I thought they would make a trade or two this off season.  Perhaps even a fairly substantial one.  Now I see that as unlikely.  Future talent is probably a decent asset when it comes time to value the team.  Perhaps a reason why they traded Marsh and why Adell could be next although you aren't getting anything close to an Ohoppe level talent for Adell right now.  There no way you trade Trout, and there's no way you could get someone to take Rendon's contract.       With his end of year resurgence, Fletch could be vulnerable.  And I'm not sure you could get anyone to pay Stassi 14m over the next two years.  You'd have to eat some of that and you'd get nothing in return.  They're screwed with Tepera although they might get a taker for 1yr of Loup.  

 

I think it will be 2b, maybe a little lower budget.  If it’s more #1, that could be kind of interesting. 

[BTH]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

What I can see happening is perhaps you do keep a guy like Velazquez and you pair him with a slugger who can fake it in the infield, then you just have Velazquez take the more challenging side of the infield at bat by at bat.

That won’t be allowed:

”Every team has to designate two infielders on each side of second base who may not switch sides during the game, except if there’s a substitution for one of those infielders.”

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Trendon said:

That won’t be allowed:

”Every team has to designate two infielders on each side of second base who may not switch sides during the game, except if there’s a substitution for one of those infielders.”

I think he means having Velazquez swap positions, not his positioning, so that he's always opposite the hitter's tendencies.

[Warfarin]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:00 PM, Docwaukee said:

I agree some signs are there.  I want to believe that Joe had a lot of roster influence this year and last.  Maybe not the specific players this year, but perhaps that the primary focus should be on pitching.  Perhaps not as much as a I hope and either way, Minasian is likely responsible in some way for some very poor choices.  

He's got to do better with the 2023 roster (duh) but this could be a very weird off season now that the team is up for sale.  There are several scenarios that wouldn't totally surprise me.  

1.  They add no free agents or a couple mil here and there, minimize payroll and hope that internal candidates improve or emerge for various weak spots.   I consider this neither the most or least likely option.  They already dumped Iglesias salary and that very much could have been because Arte is selling off long term expense.  Or it could have been that Minasian was influenced to bring him back and took the chance to get rid of him and give himself more freedom for 2023.  Or a combo of both

2a.  They add but only 1 and max 2 year deals.  Payroll ends up in the 175-190 range.  They offer Ohtani a long term deal
2b.  same as 2a except they don't offer a long term deal to Shohei

Either of these two are the most likely imo.  

3.  Payroll expands some but again only to bring in guys on very short term or pillow type deals.  So Arte decides to take one last shot.  Probably less likely than #1

4.  Arte throws caution to the wind and goes all in for 2023.  Trades.  Free agents.  And leaves the mess for the next guy to clean up.  Least likely by a lot and almost not even worth mentioning. 

I will also say that I thought they would make a trade or two this off season.  Perhaps even a fairly substantial one.  Now I see that as unlikely.  Future talent is probably a decent asset when it comes time to value the team.  Perhaps a reason why they traded Marsh and why Adell could be next although you aren't getting anything close to an Ohoppe level talent for Adell right now.  There no way you trade Trout, and there's no way you could get someone to take Rendon's contract.       With his end of year resurgence, Fletch could be vulnerable.  And I'm not sure you could get anyone to pay Stassi 14m over the next two years.  You'd have to eat some of that and you'd get nothing in return.  They're screwed with Tepera although they might get a taker for 1yr of Loup.  

 

Yeah - I see al those possibilities.  I think by far the most likely outcome is a few 1-2 year deals (probably mainly 1 year deals), such that the payroll hovers in the 180-190mil range, but no long-term deals given out.  

I do think that this team could improve significantly with a few modest deals.  This team has definite star power and emerging young talent, but what we saw this year (and a number of years before) is our depth is very poor, and when we have a few injuries (as every team does), we suffer significantly.

As for Marsh/Adell - I'm guessing Minasian wanted to strengthen positions he values more (C?), and Marsh had considerably more trade value at this point than Adell.  

As for the other contracts you mentioned - I don't think there's any need for guys like Tepera, Loup, Fletcher, or Stassi to be traded/off-loaded.  A team sale will likely take a year to transpire, and by that time, Loup and Tepera would be off the books, Stassi would have one year left, and Fletcher two years left, all at fairly reasonable / "low" costs.

I imagine this team should look fairly appealing to a prospective buyer.  While the farm is mediocre on the whole, it's improving, the FO infrastructure appears to have been built out, and the only two long-term deals are Trout (who is still one of the best in the game) and one albatross contract in Rendon.  This team is in much better shape compared to McCourt's Dodgers, and probably somewhat on par with Wilpon's Mets before Cohen took over.

[Jeff Fletcher]

On 9/10/2022 at 5:06 PM, Inside Pitch said:

I think he means having Velazquez swap positions, not his positioning, so that he's always opposite the hitter's tendencies.

You can’t do that.

[eligrba]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:28 AM, AngelsLakersFan said:

A couple of things... I can't see Arte doing anything long term except potentially extending Ohtani, but it's hard to imagine Ohtani even listening on an extension right now, I mean why would he?

It wouldn’t surprise me if Ohtani wants to stay.  From the outside it looks like a shit show; who knows what the players experience. Ohtani might like the challenge of winning with the Angels.

[Inside Pitch]

30 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You can’t do that.

I didn't make the comment.  But I do believe its what they meant.

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

I didn't make the comment.  But I do believe its what they meant.

You can't do that, either.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, jsnpritchett said:

You can't do that, either.

Now I'm in trouble.   Not even Santa Claus?  The Easter Bunny?

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

Now I'm in trouble.   Not even Santa Claus?  The Easter Bunny?

Nope.  Sorry, dude.

[jsnpritchett]

Did anyone watch this?  If so, any highlights? Or lowlights?