Joe Maddon on the state of the Angels

[Angel Oracle]

8 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

We need good starters who can give us innings. You look at the playoff teams and the ones close to a spot and they don't exhaust their bullpen arms over the long season. 

Of course part of the problem is Maddon lifting starters too early. That's got to change.

Ohtani has done pretty well in that aspect, averaging over 6 innings per start since July 1.

Sandoval and Suarez have given glimpses of it.

Need for two more starters to be doing that often enough.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[WicketMaiden]

12 hours ago, Dochalo said:

 

I think it's him calling out Minasian.  

And again, this is pure conjecture but this reeks of some unfavorable conversations happening behind the scenes as to why this team is where it is this year and Joe taking to the media to sort of cover his butt.  Or maybe those conversations didn't actually happen directly but I still think he's covering his butt.  

Excellent post @Dochalo, the quoted section above particularly so. Joe hasn't done a very good job this season and unless Perry Minasian is genuinely a halfwit he will have noticed. I hope Perry goes all Jerry Springer and roasts the hell out of him.

I was really happy when the Angels landed Maddon, now I can't wait to see him gone.

[angelsnationtalk]

16 hours ago, Stradling said:

Yes I do too. 

@jsnpritchett Detmers has earned it, but usually prospects coming up don't have immediate success. In this case the Angels are relying on him to be dominant and win games right away which won't help the team at all.

I assume what Maddon means is have MLB proven guys like the Dodgers do and then allow the young arms to get called up but not be heavily relied on immediately to dominate. 

He's right.... They need MLB proven arms. Something that we've been saying for years now but the front office is sitting fat and happy on their thumbs. 

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, angelsnationtalk said:

@jsnpritchett Detmers has earned it, but usually prospects coming up don't have immediate success. In this case the Angels are relying on him to be dominant and win games right away which won't help the team at all.

I assume what Maddon means is have MLB proven guys like the Dodgers do and then allow the young arms to get called up but not be heavily relied on immediately to dominate. 

He's right.... They need MLB proven arms. Something that we've been saying for years now but the front office is sitting fat and happy on their thumbs. 

This is kind of an odd thing to say, at least in my opinion.  I think teams generally want everyone they call up to do well.  Positioning it the way you did makes it seem like Detmers getting called up was the make-or-break moment for the season.  He was called up because he'd been pitching very well in the minors and there really wasn't any reason NOT to call him up.  I don't think anyone was like, "Oh my god, Reid, if you don't pitch like Max Scherzer, we hate you and we'll view you as a disappointment because you ruined our season!"

My point was simply that Maddon phrasing things the way he did in response to a question that was specifically about Detmers almost seemed like taking a shot at him, whether intentional or not. 

[angelsnationtalk]

13 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I'm probably reading into this way too much as I tend to do, but this feels like more than Joe's boiled over frustrations suddenly coming out.  And frankly, I don't think this is him calling out Arte.  It could be, but I don't think so.  

I think it's him calling out Minasian.  

And again, this is pure conjecture but this reeks of some unfavorable conversations happening behind the scenes as to why this team is where it is this year and Joe taking to the media to sort of cover his butt.  Or maybe those conversations didn't actually happen directly but I still think he's covering his butt.  

Also, it's become clear to me that Maddon is a 'window' guy.  Maybe that's the wrong term but in essence I think he was brought in to coach a championship roster and the team was forced to use more players from the minors than pretty much every other team.  Granted, injuries have played a big role in that but to me he's sort of complaining that going to war with guys like Bundy and Quintana and Canning was a setup for failure.  So maybe to some degree he is calling out Arte.   He's actually not wrong to complain if that's what Arte promised.  Even at full health this roster wasn't likely making the playoffs.  Or at best they'd be about where Seattle and Oakland are situated looking up 

I know this has been beaten to death but we've never really gotten a great answer about why the defense has been so bad yet it's not like we've had a roster of typically poor defenders.  Maybe @Jeff Fletcher can ask some provocative questions  (OOOh.  he said provocative).

At the end of the day I still don't think the level of talent on this roster matches what they're getting out of them.  And to me, a chunk of that is on Maddon.  Right now I feel that the roster actually has to be all that much better in order to overcome Joe's deficiencies.  But maybe that's just me.  

You've got a good point with this. 

My one concern is the calling out Minasian part. Take our last 3 GM's for example and at the end of the day, the result is the same thing. One thing I give credit to Minasian for him not being afraid to move on from players. Pujols, Iglesias and others struggled and he didn't play contracts. 

If anything, Maddon expressing his feeling towards the team should 100% be on Arte Moreno. Sure, he's not been afraid to go out and spend (Pujols, Hamilton, Upton, Rendon), but the issue is where he's putting his money and how much say he has doing those moves. 

A dude worth $3 billion dollars that's sitting in a huge market with a lucrative TV deal and plans to completely re-build the platinum triangle shouldn't be sitting with an internal budget between $180M-$190M.

You've got one of the best players to ever play the game in his prime and a 2-way star that's likely to win the MVP. Build around them, spend the money and go win this F-ing thing.....

[angelsnationtalk]

9 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

This is kind of an odd thing to say, at least in my opinion.  I think teams generally want everyone they call up to do well.  Positioning it the way you did makes it seem like Detmers getting called up was the make-or-break moment for the season.  He was called up because he'd been pitching very well in the minors and there really wasn't any reason NOT to call him up.  I don't think anyone was like, "Oh my god, Reid, if you don't pitch like Max Scherzer, we hate you and we'll view you as a disappointment because you ruined our season!"

My point was simply that Maddon phrasing things the way he did in response to a question that was specifically about Detmers almost seemed like taking a shot at him, whether intentional or not. 

I get your point. And I didn't mean it to seem like we need him to pitch like an ace right out of the gates. 

My point being is that the rotation right now mainly consists of guys who weren't on the Opening Day Roster to start with. Sure, it's nice to see guys like Detmers playing, but because the rotation is so depleted, we see ourselves depending on him to get us wins. On the other hand, teams like the Dodgers are making deals in the offseason and trade deadline to acquire proven dominant arms. 

Maddon quoted it best...."get guys that we think are ready to win right now".... Detmers has a bright future, but he's not the player that gets added to the roster to make the playoff push. 

[Stradling]

24 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

This is kind of an odd thing to say, at least in my opinion.  I think teams generally want everyone they call up to do well.  Positioning it the way you did makes it seem like Detmers getting called up was the make-or-break moment for the season.  He was called up because he'd been pitching very well in the minors and there really wasn't any reason NOT to call him up.  I don't think anyone was like, "Oh my god, Reid, if you don't pitch like Max Scherzer, we hate you and we'll view you as a disappointment because you ruined our season!"

My point was simply that Maddon phrasing things the way he did in response to a question that was specifically about Detmers almost seemed like taking a shot at him, whether intentional or not. 

It’s a ridiculous notion.

[Stradling]

12 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I get your point. And I didn't mean it to seem like we need him to pitch like an ace right out of the gates. 

My point being is that the rotation right now mainly consists of guys who weren't on the Opening Day Roster to start with. Sure, it's nice to see guys like Detmers playing, but because the rotation is so depleted, we see ourselves depending on him to get us wins. On the other hand, teams like the Dodgers are making deals in the offseason and trade deadline to acquire proven dominant arms. 

Maddon quoted it best...."get guys that we think are ready to win right now".... Detmers has a bright future, but he's not the player that gets added to the roster to make the playoff push. 

No, we don’t need him to pitch like an Ace out of the gate.  We need him to come up and continue his development as a pitcher.

[angelsnationtalk]

Just now, Stradling said:

No, we don’t need him to pitch like an Ace out of the gate.  We need him to come up and continue his development as a pitcher.

Exactly, but as he does that he will hit his bumps as he gets used to the hitters (like he is right now). While he develops in the bigs, the Angels need to be focused with proven pitchers to carry them into October. 

Something we can all agree on and I think that's what Maddon is trying to say. 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Exactly, but as he does that he will hit his bumps as he gets used to the hitters (like he is right now). While he develops in the bigs, the Angels need to be focused with proven pitchers to carry them into October. 

Something we can all agree on and I think that's what Maddon is trying to say. 

Ok.  Then I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.  The Angels never counted on him pitching like an ace from day one which is what I thought you meant.  He earned his way to the bigs as he was dominate and considering he was an advanced college pitcher.  If they expected him to be an ace then they would have surrounded him at the deadline with other quality players, they did not.  

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  Then I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.  The Angels never counted on him pitching like an ace from day one which is what I thought you meant.  He earned his way to the bigs as he was dominate and considering he was an advanced college pitcher.  If they expected him to be an ace then they would have surrounded him at the deadline with other quality players, they did not.  

Exactly, we're on the same page. Detmers 100% earned his call-up, but the problem that Maddon (I think) is pointing out is we're calling up young guys (who have earned it), but the FO didn't do anything at the deadline to try and improve the rotation for a playoff push. Let alone, the whiffs they have had in the offseason over the years. Which is why Maddon says they needed to  "get guys that we think are ready to win right now".

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Exactly, we're on the same page. Detmers 100% earned his call-up, but the problem that Maddon (I think) is pointing out is we're calling up young guys (who have earned it), but the FO didn't do anything at the deadline to try and improve the rotation for a playoff push. Let alone, the whiffs they have had in the offseason over the years. Which is why Maddon says they needed to  "get guys that we think are ready to win right now".

Then perhaps Maddon shouldn’t openly recruit his ex players like Quintana or Guerra or Fowler.  At least Cobb worked out.  

[angelsnationtalk]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Then perhaps Maddon shouldn’t openly recruit his ex players like Quintana or Guerra or Fowler.  At least Cobb worked out.  

Agreed. Though I wouldn't mind him recruiting Bryant... 

[totdprods]

Looking at what Suarez, Sandoval, Barria, and Canning provided the last few years (before this season) is proof enough that, well, not rushing pitchers is a problem, but relying on them is. 
It's not good for their development or the team's. That's why I'd be totally fine seeing virtually all of them in AAA to open next year, aside from Sandoval who has earned a rotation spot and Suarez at least a spot on the staff. Barria will need to be on the club or traded/risk being lost to waivers. 

Had Detmers not caught COVID I'd maybe feel differently about him, but he should start '22 in AAA, as should Rodriguez and Canning. 

Stack the pitching this winter - but don't do it in a way that clogs payroll or playing time.

[AngelsFaninGA]

1 hour ago, jsnpritchett said:

This is kind of an odd thing to say, at least in my opinion.  I think teams generally want everyone they call up to do well.  Positioning it the way you did makes it seem like Detmers getting called up was the make-or-break moment for the season.  He was called up because he'd been pitching very well in the minors and there really wasn't any reason NOT to call him up.  I don't think anyone was like, "Oh my god, Reid, if you don't pitch like Max Scherzer, we hate you and we'll view you as a disappointment because you ruined our season!"

My point was simply that Maddon phrasing things the way he did in response to a question that was specifically about Detmers almost seemed like taking a shot at him, whether intentional or not. 

My preference would have been for Detmers to get 10 starts or so in AAA and assuming he did well, call him up after (like Baz with the Rays). But ultimately it's splitting hairs.

In reality we're probably wasting the service time of our best prospects by calling them up while a buffoon like Maddon continues to manage the team and then takes shots at those same prospects. 

[ScottT]

I don't think Maddon is a genius.

I don't think Maddon is a buffoon.

I think some of you are miserable clowns.

[AngelsFaninGA]

2 minutes ago, ScottT said:

I don't think Maddon is a genius.

I don't think Maddon is a buffoon.

I think some of you are miserable clowns.

I don't think, therefore I isn't am

[Taylor]

18 hours ago, ScottT said:

He's earned a shot. 

He hasn't earned a big league rotation spot.

Should the Angels try him at SS then?

[T.G.]

41 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

I don't think, therefore I isn't am

Revad?

[Vlad27Trout27]

Hopefully Maddon means what he saying here....he's been wrong alot this year.

 

But he's right! Its been the same bs for the past decade, and everyone is tired. Arte needs to spend! That's the only way we get a shot at making the playoffs! 

We need to sign one Tor arm, and and than a durable inning eater! Than add atleast two arms to tbe Bp. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

On 9/22/2021 at 9:20 PM, jsnpritchett said:

And no one is going to ask him provocative questions, unfortunately. 

Give me some examples of what you consider provocative questions. 

[Inside Pitch]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Give me some examples of what you consider provocative questions. 

"Bitch, why you do that thing you did!???"   Vague yet all encompassing.

[Jeff Fletcher]

22 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

My point was simply that Maddon phrasing things the way he did in response to a question that was specifically about Detmers almost seemed like taking a shot at him, whether intentional or not. 

Here’s the whole thing

Q: How much did Reid position himself for next year?

A: It’s hard to say. He didn’t really have a solid chance. The COVID thing really did hurt him in regards to his development. I don’t know. That would be an off-season discussion. I thought he represented himself well, but he didn’t dominate either. Listen, what’s your agenda next year? Is it to participate in the AL West and possibly make it to the end and play a game in October? That should never be the situation. My point is you have to get guys that we think are ready to win right now in that rotation in order to get where you want to be. Otherwise you’re going to keep perpetuating this.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the whole thing

Q: How much did Reid position himself for next year?

A: It’s hard to say. He didn’t really have a solid chance. The COVID thing really did hurt him in regards to his development. I don’t know. That would be an off-season discussion. I thought he represented himself well, but he didn’t dominate either. Listen, what’s your agenda next year? Is it to participate in the AL West and possibly make it to the end and play a game in October? That should never be the situation. My point is you have to get guys that we think are ready to win right now in that rotation in order to get where you want to be. Otherwise you’re going to keep perpetuating this.

Did you or anyone else ask or did he elaborate on who if anyone on the staff he believes fits his view of being ready to win right now?   What if anything does he attribute the defensive struggles to?

[jsnpritchett]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Give me some examples of what you consider provocative questions. 

 

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Did you or anyone else ask or did he elaborate on who if anyone on the staff he believes fits his view of being ready to win right now?   What if anything does he attribute the defensive struggles to?

Those 2 are good starts, Jeff.  Asking questions that get Maddon and/or others in leadership roles to explain why they think the Angels are in the situation they're in right now, why the team has had long-term struggles to get back on the path to success, etc.