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IGNORED

Joe Maddon on the state of the Angels


mmc

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The shift isn't the problem.   

The flip side to actually watching games with the data up, you see how often they fail to shift based on the hitter tendencies.    Defensive positioning is no more about the shift than "moneyball" is about OBP.  A legit argument can be made they need to shift more .vs RHBs

People are misreading the situation.  

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/visuals/team-positioning

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10 minutes ago, mmc said:

I remember when Rendon signed he said a big reason he did was because Arte said we weren't stopping with just him, more pieces would be coming along with him.  Who have we gotten since then who's actually been good?  Iglesias?

Last off season was a disaster.  That’s all you can say.  It was stupid to fire Eppler in the midst of his project.  It didn’t make sense imo.  I can see an argument being made if they went out and got veteran GM to make the team win now but that’s not really the situation with Minassian.  Just stupid all around - per usual - for Arturo.  Perry has had a year and should be sort of settled in now.  They can’t fuck up this off season.  I mean they can.  But it would suck extra.  I mean they’ll probably fuck it up.  Lol. 

Edited by UndertheHalo
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3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Last off season was a disaster.  That’s all you can say.  It was stupid to fire Eppler in the midst of his project.  It didn’t make sense imo.  I can see an argument being made if they went out and got veteran GM to make the team win now but that’s not really the situation with Minassian.  Just stupid all around - per usual - for Arturo.  Perry has had a year and should be sort of settled in now.  They can’t fuck up this off season.  I mean they can.  But it would suck extra.  I mean they’ll probably fuck it up.  Lol. 

What team that's trying to win (not committed to a rebuild) keeps their GM after 5 losing seasons?

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4 minutes ago, mmc said:

What team that's trying to win (not committed to a rebuild) keeps their GM after 5 losing seasons?

I don’t think the rebuild/not rebuild dichotomy is really in play for the Angels.  they were operating the way they’ve been because Arte is a dumb ass about it.  Everyone knew Eppler was installing his system.  Trout talked about it often running up to signing his extension.  These things take time.  They take more time when you have to half heartedly do it.  Epplers work just this season really started to come to fruition.  I guess it depends on how you look at it.  For me, I blame most of the organizations problems on Arte. 

Edited by UndertheHalo
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2 minutes ago, mmc said:

What team that's trying to win (not committed to a rebuild) keeps their GM after 5 losing seasons?

Many of his projects have shown success this year, and ultimately you want your team to be built through your farm system. He was terrible in free agency but it's clear that an Arte-owned team will by default be terrible in free agency. And then you throw Maddon into the mix on top of that. 

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Just now, mmc said:

You can tell yourself this all you want, it's never going to be true

Ok.  I mean if you ignore the total turnover of personnel and you forget they went five years without signing a free agent that cost them a pick, and you skip over the fact they traded virtually no real prospects then I guess you are right. 

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2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t think the rebuild/not rebuild dichotomy is really in play for the Angels.  they were operating the way they’ve been because Arte is a dumb ass about it.  Everyone knew Eppler was installing his system.  Trout talked about it often running up to signing his extension.  These things take time.  They take more time when you have to half heartedly do it.  Eppler work is just not started to come to fruition.  I guess it depends on how you look at it.  For me, I blame most of the organizations problems on Arte. 

Well it was clear the goal was to compete and Eppler had 5 cracks at it and failed to do so every time, so I just don't see how you can say it didn't make sense, maybe you don't agree that it was deserving but no ownership who's intent on competing is going to keep someone around for that long who failed that many times.  If we had a winning record in 2020, I'm pretty sure he would've stuck around.

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4 minutes ago, AngelsFaninGA said:

Many of his projects have shown success this year, and ultimately you want your team to be built through your farm system. He was terrible in free agency but it's clear that an Arte-owned team will by default be terrible in free agency. And then you throw Maddon into the mix on top of that. 

you don't build your team exclusively through free agency/trades but in one offseason Minasian acquired a better starter and reliever than Eppler acquired over his entire tenure (not counting Ohtani as he was a prospect).  Just proves how shitty Eppler was at his job as far as I'm concerned

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4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  I mean if you ignore the total turnover of personnel and you forget they went five years without signing a free agent that cost them a pick, and you skip over the fact they traded virtually no real prospects then I guess you are right. 

This is a sign that they didn't try hard enough to win, not that of a rebuild.  You conveniently left out the fact that the Angels never sold in the offseason or traded anyone who wasn't a rental, something any rebuilding team would do.

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2 minutes ago, mmc said:

This is a sign that they didn't try hard enough to win, not that of a rebuild.  You conveniently left out the fact that the Angels never sold in the offseason or traded anyone who wasn't a rental, something any rebuilding team would do.

So who didn’t try hard enough to win?  Eppler?  Arte? Scioscia?  Ausmus?  Maddon?  The players?   Also that’s your opinion of this.  They didn’t have players that other teams coveted because they were rebuilding.  

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1 minute ago, Stradling said:

So who didn’t try hard enough to win?  Eppler?  Arte? Scioscia?  Ausmus?  Maddon?  The players?   Also that’s your opinion of this.  They didn’t have players that other teams coveted because they were rebuilding.  

You're going to dislocate your shoulders with all the reaching you're doing in here.  The rebuilding Orioles didn't have players other teams coveted, oh wait, except they sold Machado, Schoop, Gausman, and Britton.  Same for the Tigers, no, wait, they sold Upton, Kinsler, Verlander, JD Martinez, and Wilson.  I get that you still love Eppler but the statements you're making to defend him are completely detached from reality and bordering on delusion

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7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So who didn’t try hard enough to win?  Eppler?  Arte? Scioscia?  Ausmus?  Maddon?  The players?   Also that’s your opinion of this.  They didn’t have players that other teams coveted because they were rebuilding.  

The guy who had 5 years to acquire a pitcher that could provide something more than 11 good starts of Dylan Bundy

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I don’t know.  I don’t really give a shit that Minasian threw a dart at the board (Cobb) and it wasn’t a complete disaster.  Remind me…how many similarly priced guys were better than Cobb.  Several it turns out.  Who cares.  Cobb is fine.  I don’t think it’s worth pretending that get is real evidence of Minnaisian doing better than Eppler. Still dumpster diving BS.  I doubt that’s really on the GM’s in this organization. 

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17 minutes ago, mmc said:

You're going to dislocate your shoulders with all the reaching you're doing in here.  The rebuilding Orioles didn't have players other teams coveted, oh wait, except they sold Machado, Schoop, Gausman, and Britton.  Same for the Tigers, no, wait, they sold Upton, Kinsler, Verlander, JD Martinez, and Wilson.  I get that you still love Eppler but the statements you're making to defend him are completely detached from reality and bordering on delusion

You really are a prick when it comes to talking about Eppler.  If you think the Angels could have traded players during this rebuild, you are probably right, let me know which trades of Trout and Ohtani Arte would have signed off on.  I guess they could have traded Simmons, maybe Kole during one of his good years.  What you are ignoring with those names you brought up from the Tigers and the Orioles is those players were productive, so they were coveted at the deadline.  Like I have said in the past Eppler failed in free agency. 

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8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

You really are a prick when it comes to talking about Eppler.  If you think the Angels could have traded players during this rebuild, you are probably right, let me know which trades of Trout and Ohtani Arte would have signed off on.  I guess they could have traded Simmons, maybe Kole during one of his good years.  What you are ignoring with those names you brought up from the Tigers and the Orioles is those players were productive, so they were coveted at the deadline.  Like I have said in the past Eppler failed in free agency. 

So the reason they didn't have players other team's coveted isn't because they were rebuilding, got it.

 

and I mean you've been a prick in countless threads defending him so...

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24 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

I don’t know.  I don’t really give a shit that Minasian threw a dart at the board (Cobb) and it wasn’t a complete disaster.  Remind me…how many similarly priced guys were better than Cobb.  Several it turns out.  Who cares.  Cobb is fine.  I don’t think it’s worth pretending that get is real evidence of Minnaisian doing better than Eppler. Still dumpster diving BS.  I doubt that’s really on the GM’s in this organization. 

I have no idea if Minasian will be a good GM or better than Eppler, it's way too early, all I know is the fact that Cobb and Iglesias were better than any of Eppler's relievers or starters gives me reason to be much more confident in the organization's pro scouting ability than before

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44 minutes ago, mmc said:

You can tell yourself this all you want, it's never going to be true

If anyone is guilty of lying to himself on this, it's you.   

2015 Angels      2020 Angels

C  Ianetta           Stassi
1B Pujols             Pujols
2B Giovatella    Rengifo
SS Aybar           Simmons
3B Freese         Rendon
RF Calhoun       Adell
CF Trout            Trout
LF Joyce           Upton
DH Cron            Ohtani

C Perez             Castro
IF Featherston  Fletcher (He split his time between SS and 2B and played less at each position than the other two
OF Murphy        Ward
UT Navarro       Walsh

SP1 Richards    Heaney
SP2 Santiago   Bundy
SP3 Weaver     Canning  
SP4 Shoe         Barria
SP5 Wilson       Sandoval
SP6 Heaney     Teheran

CL Street         Buttrey
RP1 Alvarez     Mayers
RP2 Smith       Pena
RP3 Salas       Ramirez
RP4 Ramos     Milner
RP5 Gott         Robles

Three positions..   Thats how many holdovers there were from Dipoto's last year to Epplers.

Your dislike of Eppler blinds you.  The famous "it's not in our DNA" line was straight out of Arte's mouth.  But despite being under orders to try to win while not actually being given any real money to spend until years 4-5 of his tenure, the dude managed to pull a fast one on Arte and completed a full rebuild.

 

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2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

If anyone is guilty of lying to himself on this, it's you.   

2015 Angels      2020 Angels

C  Ianetta           Stassi
1B Pujols             Pujols
2B Giovatella    Rengifo
SS Aybar           Simmons
3B Freese         Rendon
RF Calhoun       Adell
CF Trout            Trout
LF Joyce           Upton
DH Cron            Ohtani

C Perez             Castro
IF Featherston  Fletcher (He split his time between SS and 2B and played less at each position than the other two
OF Murphy        Ward
UT Navarro       Walsh

SP1 Richards    Heaney
SP2 Santiago   Bundy
SP3 Weaver     Canning  
SP4 Shoe         Barria
SP5 Wilson       Sandoval
SP6 Heaney     Teheran

CL Street         Buttrey
RP1 Alvarez     Mayers
RP2 Smith       Pena
RP3 Salas       Ramirez
RP4 Ramos     Milner
RP5 Gott         Robles

Three positions..   Thats how many holdovers there were from Dipoto's last year to Epplers.

Your dislike of Eppler blinds you.  The famous "it's not in our DNA" line was straight out of Arte's mouth.  But despite being under orders to try to win while not actually being given any real money to spend until years 4-5 of his tenure, the dude managed to pull a fast one on Arte and completed a full rebuild.

 

I still wouldn't call what happened a rebuild, but even if that's what you want to call it, how the hell can you consider it "completed" when the MLB team is no better than when it started, and the team still has multiple holes that are going to require a lot of offseason turnover?

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5 hours ago, mmc said:

I still wouldn't call what happened a rebuild, but even if that's what you want to call it, how the hell can you consider it "completed" when the MLB team is no better than when it started, and the team still has multiple holes that are going to require a lot of offseason turnover?

You're right, he didn't get to finish it.  He was fired after replacing 22 of 25 position players.   The guy that came in after him did a "WAAAAY BETTER JOB IN HIS FIRST YEAR"  --Right??   That's why the team feels so completely dysfunctional for the first time since before Eppler got here..  And guess what... None of those amazing additions you keep fawning over are under contract beyond this year....  So absolutely nothing of value has been added since Eppler failed to finish the job...   When's the freaking parade???

See how easy it is to contort things to suit a narrative? 

Basically everything this team has going for it right now is because of what Eppler did ... that doesn't take away from his goofs, but it's a far more realistic assessment than you're presenting..  Arte's standing order to win now was a roadblock to a traditional rebuild and the Hamilton/Pujols/Wilson/Weaver contracts made it difficult to just spend their way out of it.  Eppler fucked himself with his FA mistakes...  But to pretend what happened wasn't a rebuild knowing they currently have ONE guy still around from 2016 when Eppler first took over is ridiculous.

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