Mets & Rocker: A No-Go

[arch stanton]

I think it's pretty clear that the Mets no longer have a former player agent as the GM

[ten ocho recon scout]

Stupid question, but wouldnt Rocker have to pay for his own surgery now? Or maybe Boras will cover it since hes an investment? 

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, ukyah said:

i think the 40 percent rule is exactly why boras didn't have him take the medical exam. they didn't want to be offered a discount contract, and then have the obligations passed on to them.

You keep glossing over the fact they had agreed to and publicized their deal.  The Mets were already actively marketing him. 

They knew what risks were involved, they ignored them.  Rocker being shady and not taking the MRI was a known thing.  His asking price was also a known thing to teams that reached out to him, so much so that Boras actually said they "worked" to get him to number 10, a statement that some read as them possibly overstating their signing demands in order to get to the Mets.

6 hours ago, ukyah said:

explain "the smartest guy in the room" comment, if you don't mind.

if that article and the "never offered a contract" article are both true, which i think they probably are, then i'm curious what you're implying.

To believe that article then you have to believe the articles on MLB.com, Newsday, CBSsports.com, MSN, my post and everywhere else weren't printed.  You'd also have to un-see the billboards the put up with "The Rock" on them and their logo.

The Mets were said to have made their intention known early on they were willing to meet his price, so much so teams were concerned his asking price might have been overstated in order to guarantee he would fall to the Mets. The article that claims they didn't offer a contract jives with what Boras has said that they failed to make an offer AFTER claiming he had bad medicals, which Boras is claiming is false.  

Thing is, why go through all that BS, adjust your entire draft and pick lesser players, put up billboards, only to then say... "But his elbow", pretty much everyone believed it was merely a formality. Teams pick guys with blown out elbows all the time and have for a long time now.  The Angels got Adenhart in the middle rounds then paid him 1st round money coming out of HS no the after he blew out his elbow and required TJS -- he had been touted as the potential first overall pick right up until he blew out his elbow. Davis Daniel was a TJ guy when he was taken albeit nowhere near the same profile a talent as Rocker or Adenhart.  The Rockies and Jaden Hill are another example this year.

The Mets tried to get over and then got cold feet or they were monumentally stupid and willingly weakened their entire draft to pick a guy everyone had health concerns over and who also refused to take an MRI to dispel those concerns.

Boras is a prick and all that but he isn't guilty of having switched anything up... The Mets clearly did.

[GrittyVeterans]

Well whatever the case may be: The Bachman pick certainly looks better right now. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Well whatever the case may be: The Bachman pick certainly looks better right now. 

100%

The only thing that sucks about this is that it wasn't an AL West team.   Astros BTW failed to sign their 4th rounder -- because of the sanctions he was their second highest pick.

[ukyah]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

You keep glossing over the fact they had agreed to and publicized their deal.  The Mets were already actively marketing him. 

They knew what risks were involved, they ignored them.  Rocker being shady and not taking the MRI was a known thing.  His asking price was also a known thing to teams that reached out to him, so much so that Boras actually said they "worked" to get him to number 10, a statement that some read as them possibly overstating their signing demands in order to get to the Mets.

To believe that article then you have to believe the articles on MLB.com, Newsday, CBSsports.com, MSN, my post and everywhere else weren't printed.  You'd also have to un-see the billboards the put up with "The Rock" on them and their logo.

The Mets were said to have made their intention known early on they were willing to meet his price, so much so teams were concerned his asking price might have been overstated in order to guarantee he would fall to the Mets. The article that claims they didn't offer a contract jives with what Boras has said that they failed to make an offer AFTER claiming he had bad medicals, which Boras is claiming is false.  

Thing is, why go through all that BS, adjust your entire draft and pick lesser players, put up billboards, only to then say... "But his elbow", pretty much everyone believed it was merely a formality. Teams pick guys with blown out elbows all the time and have for a long time now.  The Angels got Adenhart in the middle rounds then paid him 1st round money coming out of HS no the after he blew out his elbow and required TJS -- he had been touted as the potential first overall pick right up until he blew out his elbow. Davis Daniel was a TJ guy when he was taken albeit nowhere near the same profile a talent as Rocker or Adenhart.  The Rockies and Jaden Hill are another example this year.

The Mets tried to get over and then got cold feet or they were monumentally stupid and willingly weakened their entire draft to pick a guy everyone had health concerns over and who also refused to take an MRI to dispel those concerns.

Boras is a prick and all that but he isn't guilty of having switched anything up... The Mets clearly did.

i understand all of that, but being that they were not able to review or administer any kind of medical predraft, due to boras/rocker refusal. i don't think the pre-announcement of a mutual agreement on bonus and the marketing are the equivalent to offering a contract once the medicals were administered.

i think they definitely blew it with everything you posted, but i think whatever they saw was beyond "elbow" and they were like, no thank you. that seems pretty concrete to me purely based on that's exactly what they did by outright saying we'd rather have the #11 pick next year, than rocker right now.

what i think is interesting is, what did they see? i can't believe any team would skip over the chance to sign rocker, once they had picked him, even if he only needed tjs. as we all know and you've said, many players have been signed and immediately had tjs. he's way too good of an amateur talent to pass over just because of tjs, and apparently the signing bonus wasn't an issue as based on their publicized agreement and their entire draft strategy allowing for it.

i don't see it as the mets being particularly dumb. i see it as they saw something in his medicals that changed everything, unexpectedly.

 

[Inside Pitch]

38 minutes ago, ukyah said:

 

i don't see it as the mets being particularly dumb. i see it as they saw something in his medicals that changed everything, unexpectedly.

 

Thats fine -- we see it differently.

But IMO, if you walk into a car dealership, see 50 cars with their hoods up, and one with the hood down..  Ask "what's wrong with the one car?".... and they tell you, "nothing, it's just such a great car you really don't even need to look under the hood, look at it's performance as proof"...  THEN, you walk up to the window, see the price listed as 4.5 mil but you STILL turn to the salesman and say -- okay, I see the sticker price is 4.5 mil but I'll give you 6 mil!!!  Yes, you're dumb.  I can't even get my head around the thought process.

When you consider the decision to draft Rocker made it so they had to take lesser players, it's even dumber.   

Whatever their motivations are for not making an offer after the fact we may not know for a while, but they are guilty of grossly underestimating the risks...   Maybe it's not the elbow at all and it's a shoulder issue instead which is entirely more worrisome...  Not making an offer in that situation is probably the best call, but everything they did up to that point was dumb and the 10 teams that picked before them were smart enough not to blow the first draft after last years 5 rounder on a player that showed worrisome velocity fluctuations and then refused an MRI that would have dispelled those concerns.  

[Hubs]

12 hours ago, wopphil said:

In order for the Mets to get a replacement pick in next year’s draft, didn’t they have to offer Rocker something like 40-percent of the slot amount? So roughly $1,500,000 to $2,000,000? That’s a lot of money to walk away from if your arm is screwed up. 

He didn’t take an MRI predraft so they just have to make him an offer. Doesn’t matter how much. 

[failos]

23 minutes ago, cals said:

The article posted earlier said it wasn't a TJ situation, which would make one think it was something more serious. Presumably serious enough that they thought it would affect his career.

Boras says he's fine. I guess we will find out eventually. 

I think it’s his shoulder

[Inside Pitch]

30 minutes ago, cals said:

The article posted earlier said it wasn't a TJ situation, which would make one think it was something more serious. Presumably serious enough that they thought it would affect his career.

Boras says he's fine. I guess we will find out eventually. 

They couldnt say if it was TJ if they wanted to.  They can't really say anything so it's purposely vague.

[Inside Pitch]

7 minutes ago, failos said:

I think it’s his shoulder

You'd think it HAS to be -- like Cals said, we will find out sooner or later.

[ten ocho recon scout]

42 minutes ago, cals said:

The article posted earlier said it wasn't a TJ situation, which would make one think it was something more serious. Presumably serious enough that they thought it would affect his career.

Boras says he's fine. I guess we will find out eventually. 

Or they finally identified double dick guy from reddit, and dont want that walking around the lockers

[Stradling]

It’s the Mets so it could have been TOS.  

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, cals said:

The article specifically says it's not a TJ situation. Doubt the article all you want, I'm just stating what I read. 

It actually doesn't say that.  

Here's the actual quote.

It turned out to be a complicated situation, from which the Mets extricated themselves prior to Sunday’s 5 p.m. deadline. Simply put, team officials believed Rocker’s injury issues were serious enough to value a future pick more than him -- this was not simply a matter of a player needing Tommy John surgery, like Mets second-rounder J.T. Ginn did in 2020. (The Mets selected Ginn despite that injury, and he is now their fifth-ranked prospect.)

What that means and the context he's being said in is nebulous, but every report coming directly from the Mets simply says concerns about his arm.   Personally, I think it has to be a shoulder -- still doesn't change they played themselves.

[Tank]

you know what injury you hardly ever hear mentioned anymore? torn rotator cuffs.

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

It actually doesn't say that.  

Here's the actual quote.

It turned out to be a complicated situation, from which the Mets extricated themselves prior to Sunday’s 5 p.m. deadline. Simply put, team officials believed Rocker’s injury issues were serious enough to value a future pick more than him -- this was not simply a matter of a player needing Tommy John surgery, like Mets second-rounder J.T. Ginn did in 2020. (The Mets selected Ginn despite that injury, and he is now their fifth-ranked prospect.)

What that means and the context he's being said in is nebulous, but every report coming directly from the Mets simply says concerns about his arm.   Personally, I think it has to be a shoulder -- still doesn't change they played themselves.

Shoulder and not TOS?

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, cals said:

I don't know how you can read this as anything other than "its not TJ".  But OK. 

If you're really that vested in it -- email the author and see what he's saying exactly.   Mostly, I'm just tracking what the Mets themselves have said which is a whole lot of nothing because even saying it's not TJ could be a headache for them.   

Again, I think it's likely his shoulder.  I can't imagine they would let TJs surgery keep them from moving forward.

Elbow/Shoulder..  They fucked themselves by disregarding the risks.

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Hells Rainbow said:

Shoulder and not TOS?

All they have said is arm...   TOS is in the ribcage..  Who knows.

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, Tank said:

you know what injury you hardly ever hear mentioned anymore? torn rotator cuffs.

I think part of that is because they used to call labrum tears rotator cuff injuries.   You still always hear about labrums.

[Tank]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

I think part of that is because they used to call labrum tears rotator cuff injuries.   You still always hear about labrums.

labrum sounds a bit sexier, so that makes sense.

[failos]

53 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You'd think it HAS to be -- like Cals said, we will find out sooner or later.

Yep. A bad shoulder is not something a pitcher can easily overcome. I would have to assume the Mets knew about the elbow issues, but were caught off guard by the shoulder stuff—I mean, they can’t be that incompetent.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, cals said:

I'm not "vested" in anything. I'm a little interested in why you are trying to say a duck isn't a duck.  It's kind of fascinating. 

What you've actually seen is me "say" is reference pitchers who have hard arm injuries, specifically elbows and still signed.  

I actually have no idea what his injury is, because the team itself has not said what it is other than his arm.  I've read more than one article and seen multiple statements from the actual team -- they all say the same thing.. 

My assumption again, is that it's a shoulder issue.   Also, I think the Mets were stupid.  

[Inside Pitch]

19 minutes ago, failos said:

Yep. A bad shoulder is not something a pitcher can easily overcome. I would have to assume the Mets knew about the elbow issues, but were caught off guard by the shoulder stuff—I mean, they can’t be that incompetent.

Again, the smartest thing said in this thread is we will find out eventually.  Either he goes to indie ball, blows something out and needs surgery, or he dispels whatever concerns there might be.  It's someone else's shit-show for a change.

[T.G.]

You're all off your rockers...

His main problem is dehydration.

[Inside Pitch]

22 minutes ago, cals said:

 

 

OK

LOL.

Congratulations, you just quoted me quoting the article you referenced...  

Well Done!

Again, this is the entire quote... this was not simply a matter of a player needing Tommy John surgery, like Mets second-rounder J.T. Ginn did in 2020.