Arm Mismanagement

[Broad Street]

Does someone have that graphic that shows TJ for each team? I know it’s been posted before. 

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Kody Mac said:

I have no idea if the Angels are doing anything wrong, I just find it extremely interesting that a current player feels they’re being mismanaged. Plus, it’s more refreshing than the Pujols and Upton threads

Ask him....   Middleton is pretty good about responding to fans.   If you've followed his social media at all then you know he tends to joke around a great deal.  I didn't know if it was a sign of confirmation or an attempt to dismiss it.  

[Billy_Ball]

 

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

FWIW, im curious about the basketball part. If he was never a full time pitcher, then not sure how to read that. Not sure how to compare that background against a guy who played baseball "the traditional way" before drafted.

Good point on Dipoto. I wont go so far as to point fingers, but he definitely was at the helm for a lot of the pickups that went bad.

 

A lot a people believe that the reason there are so many injuries these days is because guys play baseball year round instead of rotating though sports and developing other muscles..   So bringing up his having been a basketball player was a weird comment.  

He doesn't really stand out as an innings shock candidate either.  He reached his innings high-water mark in 2015 and then didn't break down until 2018.

[nate]

7 hours ago, calscuf said:

And what’s more feasible?

(1) Guys who are profoundly disappointed over their arms injuries looking for someone to blame other than genetics and fate trying to find someone to finger for blame? 

(2) for reasons nobody is quite sure why, and for which there many theories (including contemporary overuse at youth level, poor records on guys who had elbow and shoulder injuries pre-1975 who just faded away, modern pitching styles and pitches) that some guys with great promise just end up having arm problems and while very sad and disappointing for those affected, sometimes shit just happens.  Or,

(2). The Angels are reckless with their prospects arms.  Perhaps they overwork then.  Perhaps they don’t listen when concerns are raised.  Perhaps they, for reals that make no sense, want to risk young men’s arms, for some unknown benefit? Perhaps to weed out the weak? Perhaps so they will blow out those arms that are gonna blow out earlier so that they aren’t relying on them later?

(4). That I will get a gift certificate for 5 free double-doubles for this post?

Obviously you can choose more than one of the above.

I choose 3

6 hours ago, RBM said:

I choose (3).

Dammit!

[Taylor]

14 minutes ago, nate said:

I choose 3

I choose (Craig).

[angelsnationtalk]

11 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

He's DirtStar...groundskeeper?

Usher from section 220

[Stradling]

23 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Usher from section 420

Fixed

[zenmaster]

Found this data online and did some pivots based on it. It includes surgeries from August 2019 so I think it's up to date.

[DCAngelsFan]

7 hours ago, Baghdad Strad said:

I’ll listen to any sound logic on this.  If I disagree with Angels blame I will explain why with actual facts.  Doesn’t mean I’m right.  Middleton pitched in 13 games in March, April and May, he only pitched 3 days in a row once.  The pitch counts for those games was 28,10 and 21.  He pitched 70 innings combined in 2017 after pitching 66 innings in 2016.   If that’s over working a guy then he probably isn’t going to be very successful.  

This.  

And the initial complaint doesn't really make much sense - "He used to be a basketball player - no arm problems - 2 years later, TJ."

We drafted him in 2013; he had TJ in 2018.  He only pitched more than 100 innings once; 125 in Burlington, when he was still a starting pitcher.   He's not thrown very many pitches, relatively speaking.

Research suggests that UCL injuries in pitchers are due to repetitive stress.  Certain pitches like sliders also create problems, but repetitive use is the single most common problem.  

Not that the team shouldn't be constantly looking at improving all of this - we invest millions in these arms; makes sense we should devote resources to kinesiology and medical surveillance and proper management including scouting and the development system.

I know, for example, that female athletes have a much higher incidence of ACL injuries because for most of them, genetically, the channel in which the ACL lies is narrower than men's.  This is addressed by weight training and developing the surrounding muscles to provide more support to that joint.  Pitching, of course, puts tremendous stress on the elbow.  But maybe there are better ways to prevent, or at least, predict these injuries.  

 

[yk9001]

What happened to DirtStar01?

[mulwin444]

39 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

What happened to DirtStar01?

He was a Terry Collins fan...

[Angel Oracle]

13 hours ago, Dochalo said:

plus, there are many theories as to the nature of these injuries.  Some argue that it starts as early as little league.  And in many cases, the people making that argument aren't just dude on twitter.  They're world renowned physician and people in the business for many years.  

I am hoping that parents and coaches of Little League and HS pitchers are taking bigtime notes, and already adjusting (no more breaking pitches in LL, no more year round pitching in HS). 

[Angel Oracle]

12 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I remember Az changed his delivery when he went there to avoid injury but it took away a couple mph from his stuff.  The Halos supposedly changed it back.  

Heaney pitched 183 innings in 2015 if you include the minors.  

and that brings up a whole different thing to consider.  Guys used to throw 180 innings without batting an eyelash.  What level of effort in a guys delivery become significant?  What's the pitcher's history?  HS innings?  college innings if any?  

I just think there are too many factors to draw conclusions.  

Another factor is, do the Halos do enough due diligence when bringing in pitchers (via trade, FA, draft, int'l signing, etc.)?  

[eligrba]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

I am hoping that parents and coaches of Little League and HS pitchers are taking bigtime notes, and already adjusting (no more breaking pitches in LL, no more year round pitching in HS). 

Unfortunately, not all parents make Little League related decisions in the best interest of their child.

[Angel Oracle]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

A lot a people believe that the reason there are so many injuries these days is because guys play baseball year round instead of rotating though sports and developing other muscles..   So bringing up his having been a basketball player was a weird comment.  

He doesn't really stand out as an innings shock candidate either.  He reached his innings high-water mark in 2015 and then didn't break down until 2018.

That could well be one of the biggest things.    Not just under developing the other muscles, but also over using the baseball related ones at too young of an age?

[Taylor]

6 hours ago, zenmaster said:

Found this data online and did some pivots based on it. It includes surgeries from August 2019 so I think it's up to date.

I bet Yankees, Mets, and White Sox fans are also pissed that their team is mismanaging their players' arms.

[Mark PT]

19 hours ago, Kody Mac said:

Have we ever seen players speak up about what they perceive as mismanagement of pitchers arms? 

Great post but the problem I have is that he never defines what mismanagement is so there is no way anyone can identify a problem. Its just his word versus the Angels' medical staff. I still think that most Angels pitchers have poor mechanics and this is definitely a contributing factor.  

[Mark PT]

6 hours ago, DCAngelsFan said:

This.  

And the initial complaint doesn't really make much sense - "He used to be a basketball player - no arm problems - 2 years later, TJ."

We drafted him in 2013; he had TJ in 2018.  He only pitched more than 100 innings once; 125 in Burlington, when he was still a starting pitcher.   He's not thrown very many pitches, relatively speaking.

Research suggests that UCL injuries in pitchers are due to repetitive stress.  Certain pitches like sliders also create problems, but repetitive use is the single most common problem.  

Not that the team shouldn't be constantly looking at improving all of this - we invest millions in these arms; makes sense we should devote resources to kinesiology and medical surveillance and proper management including scouting and the development system.

I know, for example, that female athletes have a much higher incidence of ACL injuries because for most of them, genetically, the channel in which the ACL lies is narrower than men's.  This is addressed by weight training and developing the surrounding muscles to provide more support to that joint.  Pitching, of course, puts tremendous stress on the elbow.  But maybe there are better ways to prevent, or at least, predict these injuries.  

 

It is repetitive stress but more complicated than that. First, repetitive stress must be balanced with strength and endurance of all surrounding muscle groups. Second, is his base of support must be strong enough to allow proper arm and scapular position throughout the pitching cycle  (mechanics). Both of these points are very complicated and require good trainers, pitching coaches, and therapist to all work together. You wonder then, if this is all working well in the Angels' organization.

[Angel Oracle]

12 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

Great post but the problem I have is that he never defines what mismanagement is so there is no way anyone can identify a problem. Its just his word versus the Angels' medical staff. I still think that most Angels pitchers have poor mechanics and this is definitely a contributing factor.  

That is a good point.   The pitchers as a group seem to have odd deliveries, nothing simple like Maddux had.   Is a pitcher's delivery something they take into consideration, before bringing a pitcher aboard?  

[Stradling]

27 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I bet Yankees, Mets, and White Sox fans are also pissed that their team is mismanaging their players' arms.

Clod you weren’t asked a question.  

[Claude]

15 minutes ago, Baghdad Strad said:

Clod you weren’t asked a question.  

After further review, I blame the Disney ownership group for all arm mismanagement. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Taylor said:

I bet Yankees, Mets, and White Sox fans are also pissed that their team is mismanaging their players' arms.

You know whats funny -- the White Sox were being talked about for the amazing job they had done at preventing injuries 5 years ago...   

https://tht.fangraphs.com/2015-disabled-list-information-and-a-little-more/

[Blarg]

16 hours ago, calscuf said:

And what’s more feasible?

(1) Guys who are profoundly disappointed over their arms injuries looking for someone to blame other than genetics and fate trying to find someone to finger for blame? 

(2) for reasons nobody is quite sure why, and for which there many theories (including contemporary overuse at youth level, poor records on guys who had elbow and shoulder injuries pre-1975 who just faded away, modern pitching styles and pitches) that some guys with great promise just end up having arm problems and while very sad and disappointing for those affected, sometimes shit just happens.  Or,

(2). The Angels are reckless with their prospects arms.  Perhaps they overwork then.  Perhaps they don’t listen when concerns are raised.  Perhaps they, for reals that make no sense, want to risk young men’s arms, for some unknown benefit? Perhaps to weed out the weak? Perhaps so they will blow out those arms that are gonna blow out earlier so that they aren’t relying on them later?

(4). That I will get a gift certificate for 5 free double-doubles for this post?

Obviously you can choose more than one of the above.

What happens if I choose 2, does that mean I've chosen twice?

[krAbs]

Worth noting - a lot of people in this thread seem confused about why this tweet matters. Doesn't really matter who posted it - could be a dog that fell on the keyboard and hit a bunch of letters that accidentally spelled out that tweet. The important part is Middleton appearing to agree.

Second...idk. Not even looking at TJ specifically (which HAS been particularly bad for the Angels over the past 5 years, as Zen showed), the fact is that our rotation (and bullpen, but not as notably) has been ravaged by injuries for years. Look at that objectively. You hear about a soccer team that theoretically is good, but has had 80% of its members injured for the majority of the past 4 years. You hear about a basketball team who keeps signing new players, and yet always is forced to field their C team due to injuries. At what point do you start saying "maybe this isn't luck; maybe this team either has a problem with identifying risk, or a problem with conditioning"?

Like...idk, I don't know what the problem is, but SOMETHING is broken with this team.