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Arm Mismanagement


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1 hour ago, Mark PT said:

Great post but the problem I have is that he never defines what mismanagement is so there is no way anyone can identify a problem. Its just his word versus the Angels' medical staff. I still think that most Angels pitchers have poor mechanics and this is definitely a contributing factor.  

I listened to Jim Palmer talk about the lack of mechanics he sees in today’s pitchers. I got the impression that it is not just an Angels problem.

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2 hours ago, krAbs said:

Worth noting - a lot of people in this thread seem confused about why this tweet matters. Doesn't really matter who posted it - could be a dog that fell on the keyboard and hit a bunch of letters that accidentally spelled out that tweet. The important part is Middleton appearing to agree.

Second...idk. Not even looking at TJ specifically (which HAS been particularly bad for the Angels over the past 5 years, as Zen showed), the fact is that our rotation (and bullpen, but not as notably) has been ravaged by injuries for years. Look at that objectively. You hear about a soccer team that theoretically is good, but has had 80% of its members injured for the majority of the past 4 years. You hear about a basketball team who keeps signing new players, and yet always is forced to field their C team due to injuries. At what point do you start saying "maybe this isn't luck; maybe this team either has a problem with identifying risk, or a problem with conditioning"?

Like...idk, I don't know what the problem is, but SOMETHING is broken with this team.

I think we all agree with this. I think tdawg mentioned it earlier in here.

Wed all love to pinpoint something or someone to blame. But just from this tweet, theres no info. And looking at a lot of the guys who have been hurt, there seem to be a few other factors.

One thing of note. The arm problems started roughly 2015 off the top of my head. This came not long after we had to flip trumbo for skaggs and santiago (just mentioning it because this is around when we first started having pitching needs).

In that time frame, guys like weaver, richards, jepsen etc etc were still here. They were here for years prior. Weaver especially, but im sure all would have fought back against some radical change.

Santana for example needed TJ a few years AFTER leaving.

If anyone is bored and can figure out how, maybe someone should look into if there were any significant moves to the conditioning/training staff around that time?

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17 hours ago, Mark PT said:

It is repetitive stress but more complicated than that. First, repetitive stress must be balanced with strength and endurance of all surrounding muscle groups. Second, is his base of support must be strong enough to allow proper arm and scapular position throughout the pitching cycle  (mechanics). Both of these points are very complicated and require good trainers, pitching coaches, and therapist to all work together. You wonder then, if this is all working well in the Angels' organization.

Agreed - what I was kind of reacting to was the implication MIddleton needed TJ b/c "mismanagement", and improper warmup and arm care after pitching.  Those things sound pretty simplistic (but can't really tell what he meant so.)

(fwiw, the one study I briefly looked at - rather old, iirc - was that the weakest correlation was due to "bad mechanics" - which I find doubtful - but an interesting observation.)

I don't take *this* guy at his word - but there's enough smoke here that Eppler would be negligent if he didn't order a top-to-bottom review of what they teach and train and whether that's using current best practices.  I know they're using Rapsodo and Edgertronic cameras - that's a start.  

I'd also think the should try to put together some forensic analysis of all of the guys that wound up with TJ - I'm sure they have lots of video, MRI data, coaches notes, etc over the years - what, if anything, was missed?  What, if anything, was taught incorrectly?   A lot of work, sure - but that list of injuries suggests its needed. 

 

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The Angels have changed a lot of things since this run of injuries. 

They have had 3 pitching coaches. They changed trainers and reshuffled the entire medical staff. They added training staff. They changed pregame routines. They added an extra day between starts as often as possible. They had pretty much all their drafted pitchers sit out the first season after the draft to improve their mechanics and conditioning and to rest. 

Pitchers get hurt. Especially pitchers who have been hurt before. And often times the pitchers who are available are pitchers who have been hurt. 

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9 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

As for Middleton, he did pitch 3 days in a row shortly before getting hurt. I doubt that a single instance of extra work caused TJ, but you never know. 

Yes but the middle game he threw 10 pitches. If that’s the cause then he was going to get damaged at some point. 

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8 minutes ago, Baghdad Strad said:

Yes but the middle game he threw 10 pitches. If that’s the cause then he was going to get damaged at some point. 

Generally, relievers don’t throw 3 days in a row any more. Regardless of how many pitches. I don’t know if that’s right or wrong or if it matters, but the “baseball world, circa 2019” has decided that it’s not a good idea, so it rarely happens, especially early in a season.

As for your second point, it may also be true that anyone whose ligament is going to break, is going to break. And there’s little you can do about it.

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On 8/23/2019 at 4:26 PM, krAbs said:

Worth noting - a lot of people in this thread seem confused about why this tweet matters. Doesn't really matter who posted it - could be a dog that fell on the keyboard and hit a bunch of letters that accidentally spelled out that tweet. The important part is Middleton appearing to agree.

Second...idk. Not even looking at TJ specifically (which HAS been particularly bad for the Angels over the past 5 years, as Zen showed), the fact is that our rotation (and bullpen, but not as notably) has been ravaged by injuries for years. Look at that objectively. You hear about a soccer team that theoretically is good, but has had 80% of its members injured for the majority of the past 4 years. You hear about a basketball team who keeps signing new players, and yet always is forced to field their C team due to injuries. At what point do you start saying "maybe this isn't luck; maybe this team either has a problem with identifying risk, or a problem with conditioning"?

Like...idk, I don't know what the problem is, but SOMETHING is broken with this team.

I interpreted Middleton's tweet as disagreeing with the original tweet which tweeted an unsubstantiated claim which is not uncommon in today's tweets or by tweeters of questionable tweet-integrity.

 

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:26 AM, Jeff Fletcher said:

The Angels have changed a lot of things since this run of injuries. 

They have had 3 pitching coaches. They changed trainers and reshuffled the entire medical staff. They added training staff. They changed pregame routines. They added an extra day between starts as often as possible. They had pretty much all their drafted pitchers sit out the first season after the draft to improve their mechanics and conditioning and to rest. 

Pitchers get hurt. Especially pitchers who have been hurt before. And often times the pitchers who are available are pitchers who have been hurt. 

That's is all they can do to address one of the many possible causes. I think they need to use biomechanists and do better evaluations of potential prospects and not chose guys that overthrow. Place an emphasis on control and sequencing of pitches rather than 95+ mph.

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2 hours ago, Mark PT said:

That's is all they can do to address one of the many possible causes. I think they need to use biomechanists and do better evaluations of potential prospects and not chose guys that overthrow. Place an emphasis on control and sequencing of pitches rather than 95+ mph.

I think they are doing a lot of that too. 

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A lot of pitching injuries can be a result of over use when these players are teenagers. High School, travel ball off season working with a pitching coach. College pitchers are always overworked. Throwing too many sliders, cutters and circle changeups put a lot of torque on the elbow. Another factor can be as simple as mechanics. Throwing across the body is a recipe for injury.   

The Angels need to look at their approach to pitching development and who is instructing them. 

One caveat being that most teams have several pitching injuries every year. 

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