Arm Mismanagement

[Docwaukee]

plus, there are many theories as to the nature of these injuries.  Some argue that it starts as early as little league.  And in many cases, the people making that argument aren't just dude on twitter.  They're world renowned physician and people in the business for many years.  

[Broad Street]

Well to answer one of your questions, they got the bulk of their usage under Sosh, but it’s difficult to see any trend. Perceval had a major arm injury that ended his career shortly after signing with Detroit, but other than that it’s difficult to find any major arm injuries until the DiPoto realm 

[Docwaukee]

Just now, ten ocho recon scout said:

FWIW, im curious about the basketball part. If he was never a full time pitcher, then not sure how to read that. Not sure how to compare that background against a guy who played baseball "the traditional way" before drafted.

Good point on Dipoto. I wont go so far as to point fingers, but he definitely was at the helm for a lot of the pickups that went bad.

 

and it may not be Jerry or his staff's fault.  All I am saying is that each player has different starting point, different ending points, and nothing consistent in between.  Maybe Middleton was mismanaged but when was it?  but that's just an explanation for one guy who has a different history than all the rest.  

It's concerning that Key would post what he did, but it doesn't translate to everyone by long shot.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

12 minutes ago, Kody Mac said:

Skaggs

Heaney

Richards

Middleton

Ramirez

None of them had any prior history. Is it just bad luck? 

I want to say Skaggs did have questions prior, but could be totally wrong. In Heaney, I dont remember anything. But...the Marlins were willing to flip a first round pick pitcher with 6 years of control for Dee Gordon. Makes you wonder.

But whatever it is, Heaney has only broken 100 innings twice in his MLB career. The first time was 105 innings.... I have a hard time believing in the year after landing here, the Angels unravelled some 15 years of pitching prior.

Richards throws heavy and sinks. Had he gotten TJ way back when the first time, hed be pitching this year, and hed still be here.

Again, Im not saying the angels arent doing something wrong. But there might be more understandable reasons.

[Broad Street]

9 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

but their time with the Angels isn't consistent between when they started and when they got injured.  Neither is their workload.  Neither is the management of who directed their workload.  Neither is the level they were at or the coaches they were subject to.  

I'm not here to make excuses, but the root cause doesn't seem overly apparent to me and one pitcher could have be overworked but that doesn't me the entire system is broken.  It's the correlation causation argument.  

Then is it just a player being frustrated or is the player’s perception that they’re being mishandled? Is he the only one that feels that way?

[Broad Street]

I have no idea if the Angels are doing anything wrong, I just find it extremely interesting that a current player feels they’re being mismanaged. Plus, it’s more refreshing than the Pujols and Upton threads

[Docwaukee]

Just now, Kody Mac said:

Well to answer one of your questions, they got the bulk of their usage under Sosh, but it’s difficult to see any trend. Perceval had a major arm injury that ended his career shortly after signing with Detroit, but other than that it’s difficult to find any major arm injuries until the DiPoto realm 

not seeing as Sosh correlation at all.  most of the guys innings were in other orgs or in the minors.  maybe the Dipoto thing has some legs.  Maybe.  Sosh managed guys with similar innings load histories for years without issue.  If anything, he had a quick hook as the org was actually out of proportion on the good side for major arm injures until Jerry got here.  

and we haven't even talked about delivery, effort and the possibility that the pitchers chose were just more susceptible due to those and other factors.  

[Docwaukee]

3 minutes ago, Kody Mac said:

I have no idea if the Angels are doing anything wrong, I just find it extremely interesting that a current player feels they’re being mismanaged. Plus, it’s more refreshing than the Pujols and Upton threads

I'm very curious as well.  Is it that he's implying he was mishandled or that it's more systemic.  My guess is the former.  

[Docwaukee]

7 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I want to say Skaggs did have questions prior, but could be totally wrong. In Heaney, I dont remember anything. But...the Marlins were willing to flip a first round pick pitcher with 6 years of control for Dee Gordon. Makes you wonder.

But whatever it is, Heaney has only broken 100 innings twice in his MLB career. The first time was 105 innings.... I have a hard time believing in the year after landing here, the Angels unravelled some 15 years of pitching prior.

Richards throws heavy and sinks. Had he gotten TJ way back when the first time, hed be pitching this year, and hed still be here.

Again, Im not saying the angels arent doing something wrong. But there might be more understandable reasons.

I remember Az changed his delivery when he went there to avoid injury but it took away a couple mph from his stuff.  The Halos supposedly changed it back.  

Heaney pitched 183 innings in 2015 if you include the minors.  

and that brings up a whole different thing to consider.  Guys used to throw 180 innings without batting an eyelash.  What level of effort in a guys delivery become significant?  What's the pitcher's history?  HS innings?  college innings if any?  

I just think there are too many factors to draw conclusions.  

[tomsred]

Starting tomorrow conspiracy theory #2698, The Angels are making their players sleep in hotel beds that harm their bodies.

 

 

[ScottT]

Hard to gauge this from my couch, but it really doesn't seem that the Angels are doing crazy that leads to more injuries than most teams have.   I remember someone posted a list of TJ surgeries over 10 or so years.  The Angels were right up there, but I'm not sure they had the most, and it definitely wasn't outrageous.  They seem to be pretty cautious these days.... and that didn't just start with Cannning being shut down.   When they drafted him, he didn't pitch at all that year.   It goes back further than that

Heck.... the just played the White Sox....   one night a roo'kie threw well over 100 pitches and the tv broadcast mentioned his season high was 118.   The next night Giolito went well over 100.   That doesn't happen with the Angels... and hasn't in a while.

Middleton is probably frustrated as hell.  Working hard to get back.  I'll shrug that off. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Kody Mac said:

Then is it just a player being frustrated or is the player’s perception that they’re being mishandled? Is he the only one that feels that way?

Valid question. Id probably lean towards frustrated... but I have zero knowledge. For all we know the training staff sucks.

[ScottT]

Being a trainer is like a lot of other jobs in this sport... hitting coach, pitching coach, manager...

You may be doing a fine job, but you dont have much to work with or s happens. Moreso the latter for a trainer 

Seriously... trainer takes might be the dumbest takes regarding baseball that are posted online. 

They might suck?   Why and how the hell would the Angels staff suck compared to others? And how the hell would we know?

This season has jumped the shark

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Kody Mac said:

 Plus, it’s more refreshing than the Pujols and Upton threads

Literally... ANYTHING... else to talk about.

But to be fair, once winter hits, we will still argue about pujols... gladly...just for something to argue about 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

Sosh managed guys with similar innings load histories for years without issue.  If anything, he had a quick hook 

Was gonna mention the same, but didnt have time to look it up first. I thought we all used to bitch that Sosh pulled guys before we wanted him to. Guy would get pulled, reliever would blow the lead, and we were pissed because the starter was cruising.

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

I remember Az changed his delivery when he went there to avoid injury 

This rings a bell. I just remember chatter, but no specifics.

[ten ocho recon scout]

52 minutes ago, ScottT said:

Hard to gauge this from my couch

Nonsense. Its the internet. We're all experts here.

Edited August 23, 2019 by ten ocho recon scout

[ten ocho recon scout]

19 minutes ago, calscuf said:

Wait... maybe it was DiJediPoto?

DJ Puto? What kind of music does he play?

[Roy Hobbs]

Here's a list from 2017 of pitchers who had TJS, it doesn't look like just an Angel problem.In the same article it states that in 2017 86.7 percent of games had at least one pitcher who had TJS.

[Stradling]

19 minutes ago, calscuf said:

And what’s more feasible?

(1) Guys who are profoundly disappointed over their arms injuries looking for someone to blame other than genetics and fate trying to find someone to finger for blame? 

(2) for reasons nobody is quite sure why, and for which there many theories (including contemporary overuse at youth level, poor records on guys who had elbow and shoulder injuries pre-1975 who just faded away, modern pitching styles and pitches) that some guys with great promise just end up having arm problems and while very sad and disappointing for those affected, sometimes shit just happens.  Or,

(2). The Angels are reckless with their prospects arms.  Perhaps they overwork then.  Perhaps they don’t listen when concerns are raised.  Perhaps they, for reals that make no sense, want to risk young men’s arms, for some unknown benefit? Perhaps to weed out the weak? Perhaps so they will blow out those arms that are gonna blow out earlier so that they aren’t relying on them later?

(4). That I will get a gift certificate for 5 free double-doubles for this post?

Obviously you can choose more than one of the above.

Rack em

[ten ocho recon scout]

25 minutes ago, calscuf said:

Elton John songs in Spanish, mostly.

Candle in the wind?

[ten ocho recon scout]

12 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

Here's a list from 2017 of pitchers who had TJS, it doesn't look like just an Angel problem.In the same article it states that in 2017 86.7 percent of games had at least one pitcher who had TJS.

Thats pretty interesting.

To add, look at how many names on there were guys we had at one point (who had TJ somewhere else), and other guys most of us on here wanted at some point....

[Stradling]

I’ll listen to any sound logic on this.  If I disagree with Angels blame I will explain why with actual facts.  Doesn’t mean I’m right.  Middleton pitched in 13 games in March, April and May, he only pitched 3 days in a row once.  The pitch counts for those games was 28,10 and 21.  He pitched 70 innings combined in 2017 after pitching 66 innings in 2016.   If that’s over working a guy then he probably isn’t going to be very successful.  

[ScottT]

I only had to go back to this guys tweets one day ago to lol.  He seems like a lot of people on here, but the Angels paid him $13 per hour?

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, ScottT said:

I only had to go back to this guys tweets one day ago to lol.  He seems like a lot of people on here, but the Angels paid him $13 per hour?

Hmmm....

So obviously not even a shift lead for Aramark.