The Angels rotation

[Blarg]

4 hours ago, CanadianHalo said:

I’m also taking into account Jam’s minor league year last year as well. There’s definitely cause for concern. 

Jones started last season at 2nd base for the first time in his career. And it wasn't as though he was shifting infield positions, he moved from the outfield. 

At 19 he had over an 800 OPS in high A playing center field, he was 4 years younger than the competition.

Last season his batting average dropped as he was working hard on fielding. He was promoted to AA where the average age is 4 years older than him. 

He is only 20 years old, in his first major league spring training debut facing guys  with years of major league experience let alone being much older than him, and you want to make a judgment on 18 plate appearances. 

Glad you're not part of the organization. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

8 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Yes, some have a couple ifs and some have like 15.  I am not going to apologize for being disappointed that the Angels have 3 or 4 times as many ifs as I am comfortable with.

There isn't a single arm in the rotation that isn't a major risk.

Sorry for telling the truth, but that's lame.

I never advocated to have no worry.  I am just willing to say out loud when there is way too much worry.

If you plan to do well at the race track, you don't plan on winning the pick six.

Sure all these starters could be fine.  Could be.  But what is the smart bet? The smart bet is three of them have problems and suddenly Nick Tropeano is your horse.

I apologize again for living in reality.

Well all hell broke loose with their rotation last year and they won 80 games. 

Reality is the reasonable over-under for this team is probably 84ish wins. Obviously that’s not great, but it is within reasonable range of a playoff spot when the primary competition is the Rays and Twins. 

[tdawg87]

8 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Yes, some have a couple ifs and some have like 15.  I am not going to apologize for being disappointed that the Angels have 3 or 4 times as many ifs as I am comfortable with.

There isn't a single arm in the rotation that isn't a major risk.

Sorry for telling the truth, but that's lame.

I never advocated to have no worry.  I am just willing to say out loud when there is way too much worry.

If you plan to do well at the race track, you don't plan on winning the pick six.

Sure all these starters could be fine.  Could be.  But what is the smart bet? The smart bet is three of them have problems and suddenly Nick Tropeano is your horse.

I apologize again for living in reality.

Man of all the guys here you can pick arguments with, you pick Fletcher.

[Troll Daddy]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Well all hell broke loose with their rotation last year and they won 80 games. 

Reality is the reasonable over-under for this team is probably 84ish wins. Obviously that’s not great, but it is within reasonable range of a playoff spot when the primary competition is the Rays and Twins. 

That logic works for me ... don’t count out the A’s. The Angels also had Mike Scioscia managing the team. 

 

[Inside Pitch]

13 hours ago, CanadianHalo said:

Blind optimism at its finest. 

Look I’m hoping for the best too but I’m not going to ignore the fact that guys like Jones looked completely lost at the plate this spring. Especially when it’s looking like the Angels are counting on him.

If you're basing your opinion of him based on what you've seen this spring and only this spring then the snide commentary about blind optimism is funny.  Even funnier when you consider that he's managed a .364 OBP while "looking completely lost".  

Also, has anyone seen any reference anywhere to the Angels are actually counting on him this year?   Anywhere?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Inside Pitch

[Dtwncbad]

3 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

Man of all the guys here you can pick arguments with, you pick Fletcher.

Please.  It's a discussion with different opinions and I don't see any reason to treat Jeff Fletcher with kid gloves.  I am sure he, likely more than others, can handle a different opinion.

[Jeff Fletcher]

16 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Please.  It's a discussion with different opinions and I don't see any reason to treat Jeff Fletcher with kid gloves.  I am sure he, likely more than others, can handle a different opinion.

We disagree a lot. I don’t mind since I’m always right.

[TroutField]

28 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Please.  It's a discussion with different opinions and I don't see any reason to treat Jeff Fletcher with kid gloves.  I am sure he, likely more than others, can handle a different opinion.

He meant it more as, you probably don’t want to have a back and forth with Jeff Fletcher because 9 times out of 10 he makes you sound like a dumbass, and rightfully so.

[Stradling]

21 hours ago, Blarg said:

A sample size of 18 plate appearances. That was less than 2 at bats per game he was in coming in cold off the bench. Solid argument, I guess, if you're a Canadian. 

In his defense he’s by far the best Canadian we’ve had on this site.  

[Stradling]

11 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

Man of all the guys here you can pick arguments with, you pick Fletcher.

Always.  

[Jay]

12 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Well all hell broke loose with their rotation last year and they won 80 games. 

Reality is the reasonable over-under for this team is probably 84ish wins. Obviously that’s not great, but it is within reasonable range of a playoff spot when the primary competition is the Rays and Twins. 

The fewest wins ever for a ALWC team is 85 and the average wins for ALWC teams is 91.

 

[m0nkey]

8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

We disagree a lot. I don’t mind since I’m always right.

I don’t know what’s better, the response or the emoji at the end

[Dtwncbad]

The rallying behind Fletcher is a bit comical, as if I am attempting to win some argument with him in a zero sum game of a winner and loser.

That view is pretty immature.

This is a message board.  It doesn't exist if people dont discuss things and disagree and share.

I really have no fear of looking "wrong" or learning or yielding to fair and interesting points.

The reality is an uncontaminated fan (especially one that doesn't oddly worship a writer) and a beat writer are very likely to disagree on many things because their relationship with the game and with the team could not be more different.

Disagreements from different perspectives is expected.

I think it is very cool that Jeff Fletcher is here on this board.

But I will just interact with him like anyone else.

The point is (and I am absolutely guilty of taking too many words to make a point) you people are missing something fairly obvious.  A fan and a beat writer, if they get into detailed discussions about baseball, are pretty likely to find things they disagree on because they have entirely different relationships with the game and the team.

If you personally don't find yourself ever disagreeing with a beat writer, you might ask yourself some questions.

This board is dead without discussions over differences of opinion.

And yes, I will be "wrong" on things a heck of a lot more than people who won't engage and take the risk of being wrong.

[Dtwncbad]

10 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

We disagree a lot. I don’t mind since I’m always right.

Yep.  It is very natural for us to disagree since we have entirely different relationships with the game and the team.  That makes things interesting.

[Homebrewer]

They are working on a few things and missing some spots, but the ball is coming out of their hands really well.

There have been a few hiccups, but you just gotta turn the page when you see flies in the ointment.

It's early.

[VariousCrap]

14 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Well all hell broke loose with their rotation last year and they won 80 games. 

Reality is the reasonable over-under for this team is probably 84ish wins. Obviously that’s not great, but it is within reasonable range of a playoff spot when the primary competition is the Rays and Twins. 

This is what kills me.  That the Angels are content going into the season with an over-under of 84ish wins being a realistic goal.  I understand there just weren't that many realistic options out there in FA land this off-season for them, but it just feels like 2019 is going to be another year of wasting Trout.  The Angels are going to need to be healthier than the last few years and have some luck go their way. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by VariousCrap

[GrittyVeterans]

13 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

This is what kills me.  That the Angels are content going into the season with an over-under of 84ish wins being a realistic goal.  I understand there just weren't that many realistic options out there in FA land this off-season for them, but it just feels like 2019 is going to be another year of wasting Trout.  The Angels are going to need to be healthier than the last few years and have some luck go their way. 

It was the reality the second they set the budget at what they did and made Harvey and Cahill the big acquisitions. It’s being generous to say they improved at all this offseason, other than the prospects being a year older. Harvey is basically a Garrett Richards-clone and Cahill gives you 125 innings of 4 ERA ball if you’re lucky. The board has convinced themselves that they addressed needs but I struggle to see it. Same gaping holes at 3B, 2B, front of the rotation, possibly C and RF too

the only acquisitions I’m a fan of are Bour and Allen. Everything else points to a write off year where we are waiting for prospects to be ready(2020)

so we can argue over whether they win 77 games or 84 games or somewhere in between but the end result is very likely to be missing the playoffs.

 

all im saying is they better have a plan in place to improve the rotation next offseason. Because help from the farm is arguably only coming to the lineup. We lack pitching prospects with upside

[IEAngelsfan]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

In his defense he’s by far the best Canadian we’ve had on this site.  

Yeah, but the bar was set really low with Claude.

[Hubs]

On 3/13/2019 at 6:12 PM, Second Base said:

If these guys weren't already in AAA, then I think what you're saying is probably true.

- Rengifo is going to be the sort of 2B that hits .280 with 20 SB, .340 OBP and solid defense. That's not an all-star or anything, but it's a rock solid regular. 

- Thaiss I envision being about as good as Hosmer offensively, though not a gold glove 1B. If he gets full playing time, he'd be average-ish overall at the position, but I really feel like Albert will retire after this year, and Marsh will breakout in AA. I think going into next year, Upton is going to begin logging some starts at first base, designated hitter (when Shohei isn't) and serve as the 4th OF. This will probably only leave 300 PA available for a 1B, and those will ultimately be between Thaiss and Walsh. I actually think this end s up going to Walsh. He isn't as good of a hitter as Thaiss, but he offers slightly more power, doubles as a situational lefty in the pen and can even log time in the corner outfield if necessary. That versatility opens up another roster spot for someone speedy to come off the bench and steal a base, or an extra reliever. So whatever Thaiss' outcome, I'm not sure it comes with the Angels long term.

- Ward, I have little confidence if any for him to be someone that hits for average or plays gold glove defense. But he should reach base at an ok clip and hit 25 HR's a year. For me, I think the path to playing time long term will be a battle between Ward and Jam Jones. If Jones reaches his potential, he'll be the starting 2B, hands down. He'd hit for average, get on base and be a 20/20 player every year and I think that would force Rengifo over to third base. So I'm not sure who will be the long term piece between Ward and Jones,  but I'm confident on the will be.

- Fletcher will be exactly what he is right now. A better than average utility player. One good enough to start whenever. 

- Jo Adell will be an all-star caliber starting OF that hits 30 HR and 20 SB a year. 

- Brandon Marsh will be a borderline all-star caliber starting OF. 

I might be a homer,  but that's the way I see it. 

I need to see more from Rengifo before I'd make him a starter. Jam Jones is the future at 2nd, Ward at 3rd. Don't disagree with you about Marsh either, except I think his timeline due to his injuries is 2021.

Upton is under contract for 2019-2022. That last year, assuming Trout is Resigned and Adell is in Right, then Marsh may push Upton to 1B.

Thaiss is ready now, and likely will see major league action, but I agree, if Walsh can hit in AAA, and pitch there, he's likely called up before Thaiss. He can play the OF and 1B, and be a RP.

 

[Hubs]

19 hours ago, Blarg said:

Jones started last season at 2nd base for the first time in his career. And it wasn't as though he was shifting infield positions, he moved from the outfield. 

At 19 he had over an 800 OPS in high A playing center field, he was 4 years younger than the competition.

Last season his batting average dropped as he was working hard on fielding. He was promoted to AA where the average age is 4 years older than him. 

He is only 20 years old, in his first major league spring training debut facing guys  with years of major league experience let alone being much older than him, and you want to make a judgment on 18 plate appearances. 

Glad you're not part of the organization. 

Jones was a 2B in high school, so he's played the position before. But I do think if Mike Moustakas can do it, anyone can.

And I am really excited about his potential.

My prospect rankings would have him 4th behind Adell, Canning, and Marsh.

 

[Second Base]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I need to see more from Rengifo before I'd make him a starter. Jam Jones is the future at 2nd, Ward at 3rd. Don't disagree with you about Marsh either, except I think his timeline due to his injuries is 2021.

Upton is under contract for 2019-2022. That last year, assuming Trout is Resigned and Adell is in Right, then Marsh may push Upton to 1B.

Thaiss is ready now, and likely will see major league action, but I agree, if Walsh can hit in AAA, and pitch there, he's likely called up before Thaiss. He can play the OF and 1B, and be a RP.

 

It's funny, I said that before the new rule changes came out.  Now I'm thinking it could be Thaiss instead of Walsh.  Having to designate a player as a pitcher, hitter or DH complicates things a bit.  It means if Walsh isn't going to accumulate the necessary games this year, he won't be designated as a two-way player.  So that means you'd either have to carry him as a hitter and only allow him to pitch in blow outs or extra innings affairs, or as a pitcher that gets to hit, but it takes one more roster spot away that you'd typically use for an actual pitcher.  And the fact that the three-batter minimum is now going to be enforced, likely means that Walsh being a situational lefty is out the door.

Those new designations really screw him. 

So now I'm thinking it's ultimately going to be Thaiss getting those starts at 1B that Upton isn't getting. 

[Dtwncbad]

11 hours ago, TroutField said:

He meant it more as, you probably don’t want to have a back and forth with Jeff Fletcher because 9 times out of 10 he makes you sound like a dumbass, and rightfully so.

I hear you loud and clear, so let me make an suggestion.  Why don't you just ask him for an autograph for your birthday?

(And if you think there is even a millimeter of insult in this post to Jeff Fletcher you are not bright enough to get the post.)

Edited March 15, 2019 by Dtwncbad

[Hubs]

9 minutes ago, Second Base said:

It's funny, I said that before the new rule changes came out.  Now I'm thinking it could be Thaiss instead of Walsh.  Having to designate a player as a pitcher, hitter or DH complicates things a bit.  It means if Walsh isn't going to accumulate the necessary games this year, he won't be designated as a two-way player.  So that means you'd either have to carry him as a hitter and only allow him to pitch in blow outs or extra innings affairs, or as a pitcher that gets to hit, but it takes one more roster spot away that you'd typically use for an actual pitcher.  And the fact that the three-batter minimum is now going to be enforced, likely means that Walsh being a situational lefty is out the door.

Those new designations really screw him. 

So now I'm thinking it's ultimately going to be Thaiss getting those starts at 1B that Upton isn't getting. 

The new rule doesn't go into effect until 2020, so, if Walsh gets his 20 innings at the ML level this year, he'd immediately qualify as a 2-way for 2020. The Angels don't have a clear left handed relief pitcher in the pen on their 40-man right now, except I suppose Peters, who is probably more of a starter. I expect Jennings to be there, but he's not on the team yet. And they have a full 40-man, and they have to add Peter Bourjos as well, so even by transferring a player like Middelton to the 60-Day DL. I don't see how they could give three guys not on the 40 spots. Middleton gets you one, but then they risk losing people on waivers.

Cowart is on the 40-man, and will likely be on the team as he is out of options. He or LaStella, anyway, makes the team. That might give you one spot.

I do also feel that they may alter this rule before it goes into effect to be able to designate 2-way players as rookies if they qualified it in AAA the previous season. But they still must have rookie eligibility for this exception.

[Hubs]

Also the three batter thing is only three batters, if they start an inning with no outs.

Technically, with a runner on first and one out, the new reliever, technically can only throw one pitch, get a double play, and be done.

[T.G.]

Some people take themselves way too seriously.