Breaking: Eppard and Picciolo let go - Scioscia and Dipoto staying

[m0nkey]

So you concede 2011 wasn't a slow start (@ 2 games over 500) but 2010 was a slow start (@. 5 under 500)?

No, he said he looked at it differently and wasn't going to continue the argument/conversation, but did anyway

[Stradling]

Ok, in 2012 if they had the same winning percentage in April they had the rest of the season they would have won 93 games and would have been in the playoffs.

[Lifetime]

Actually upstream he did concede that point. But thanks for your contribution. 

[Lifetime]

Ok, in 2012 if they had the same winning percentage in April they had the rest of the season they would have won 93 games and would have been in the playoffs.

I don't disagree that 2012 and 2013 were slow starts. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Wow...you really are something. Of course they've had slow starts the last 4 years. The fat lard in the dugout allows them to dick around in spring training I've heard.

I'm not defending anyone. But most players are dicking around in spring, not just ours.

[ten ocho recon scout]

May 29th 2010 Morales broke his foot and that pretty much ended our season. I still can't believe that happened.

and the next, when we thought he would be back and wasn't (and we didn't replace him).

And probably more importantly, as we got weaker, texas got strong. Very strong.

Its not just that we haven't played well, but the competition (tex/oak) got very good. Its not like we just fell apart and some second place team took over by proxy.

[tennischmp]

This argument is getting old. Can someone concede already so we can declare a winner?

[OregonLAA]

LOL LT

[Mark68]

I will go back through Scioscia's entire tenure:

 

5/1/00: 13-13, tied for 2nd, 1.5 GB              10/1/00: 82-80, 3rd, 9.5 GB

5/1/01: 11-15, tied for 2nd, 9 GB                 10/7/01: 75-87, 3rd, 41 GB

5/1/02: 12-14, 3rd, 5.5 GB                           9/29/02: 99-63, 2nd, 4 GB (WC)

5/1/03: 13-14, 3rd, 3.5 GB                           9/28/03: 77-85, 3rd, 19 GB

5/1/04: 14-10, 2nd, 1 GB                             10/3/04: 92-70, 1st, 1 GA

5/1/05: 14-11, 1st, 1 GA                               10/2/05: 95-67, 1st, 7 GA

5/1/06: 12-14, 3rd, 2 GB                              10/2/06: 89-73, 2nd, 4 GB

5/1/07: 16-11, 1st, 2 GA                               10/1/07: 94-68, 1st, 6 GA

5/1/08: 18-12, tied for 1st                             9/30/08: 100-62, 1st, 21 GA

5/1/09: 9-13, 3rd, 4.5 GB                             10/6/09: 97-65, 1st, 10 GA

5/1/10: 12-13, 3rd, 1 GB                              10/3/10: 80-82, 3rd, 10 GB

5/1/11: 16-12, tied for 1st                             9/28/11: 86-76, 2nd, 10 GB

5/1/12: 9-15, 4th, 8 GB                                10/3/12: 89-73, 3rd, 5 GB

5/1/13: 10-17, 4th, 7 GB                              9/30/13: 78-84, 3rd, 18 GB

 

Scioscia has had the Angels above .500 5 times on May 1. Out of those 5 seasons, they've finished first 4x and 2nd once. Their average final record when above .500 on 5/1 has been 93-69.

They have been .500 once on May 1 (2000), and finished 2 games above .500 (3rd place) that year.

They have been under .500 8x on May 1, and their average record at the end of those years has been 86-76, and those years have included one 1st, two seconds, and five third place finishes.

 

Not saying that this correlation equals causation, but one has to at least look at the correlation.

April sets the tone for the rest of the year. If the team does well in April, it makes the rest of the year easier, because they control their own destiny. If it does poorly, then they have to have a hot streak or two to play catch up, or have to be in a division that includes no other good team. Obviously, that is not currently the case, which makes punting the first sixth of the season a losing proposition.

[mtangelsfan]

I would say that a typical Sosh teams struggles early because he is trying to find that right mix of players early.  It is early in the season where you will see that wonderful dazzling array of lineups each game.  He is giving struggling players a chance to fix their problems and give them confidence for later in the season.

 

That is how Sosh manages.  6 times it has worked just fine so I don't really see how one can say there is correlation or causation. 

 

Again, I'm fine talking about the last four years and the failure that those have been.

[xboom28x]

I would say that a typical Sosh teams struggles early because he is trying to find that right mix of players early.  It is early in the season where you will see that wonderful dazzling array of lineups each game.  He is giving struggling players a chance to fix their problems and give them confidence for later in the season.

 

That is how Sosh manages.  6 times it has worked just fine so I don't really see how one can say there is correlation or causation. 

 

Again, I'm fine talking about the last four years and the failure that those have been.

 

Isn't this what Spring Training is for?

[mtangelsfan]

I don't know boom.  I'm no expert.  I just know what I've seen regularly since Sosh took the team over.  It's certainly frustrating for the fans but up until four years ago it worked way more often than it didn't.

[xboom28x]

I don't know boom.  I'm no expert.  I just know what I've seen regularly since Sosh took the team over.  It's certainly frustrating for the fans but up until four years ago it worked way more often than it didn't.

 

He also had a way different roster back then. Sosh is still a top 10 manager. I just don't think he is a correct fit with the current Angels roster. That's been my argument all along.

[mtangelsfan]

and I don't necessarily disagree with that.  I also can never remember how to spell necessarily.

[xboom28x]

Angels teams of the past have been able to survive slow to mediocre starts because the pitching staff was much better. We all knew going in this staff as constructed was not a championship staff, but we felt the lineup was much better with Hamilton in it. Therefore, when guys like Hamilton and Pujols are struggling to get going, they need to be dropped down in the lineup or given a day off earlier to try to get them going. Waiting until June or July to make these types of changes is far too late.

 

That is one of the areas that I would like to see Sosh make a change in coaching style. Show us that April games do matter. Quit saying you have 5 months left in the season. You can say that when you start 15-15, but when you are 10-20, that line of thinking doesn't work.

[Pbonetheman]

But if we didn't have slow starts we couldn't compare the season to 2002.

[nate]

I think Scioscia is a top manager if he has the right roster.  JD/Arte really didn't build a roster he excels with.

 

If you look back, when he was dominating his pantherian projections, it was with scrappy teams, lots of switch hitters and lots of guys that he could platoon.  He of course had one or two moto guys in each roster but the rosters were very different.

 

It is probably a mix of players and Scioscia but these teams just don't seem to be as passionate and happy as other teams.  Of course winning usually helps with that, but everything just looks and feels stale.

[Torridd]

Scioscia now has 14 seasons under his belt.  In that time the Angels regular season record in March/April is 171-180.    Only one year were the Angels greater than 4 games over .500 (2008).   The last two years the Angels have a record of 17-32 (note - these last two years there has supposedly been considerable effort to turn this around).

 

This falls on the manager for not having his team ready to play coming out of the gate.  They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. I would say that some decision maker in the Angels FO is making a case for insanity by allowing Scioscia to continue to manage.

Good point Brian, but should a manager be fired based on the sum of his work or just two months? Also, that's a pretty small disparity of 9 games which could be discarded based on his total record. We all hear that each part of the season is equal so if he's say, 200-140 in July, from a potential estimation of our play versus NL clubs, shouldn't that also be taken into consideration?

[stormngt]

Scioscia now has 14 seasons under his belt.  In that time the Angels regular season record in March/April is 171-180.    Only one year were the Angels greater than 4 games over .500 (2008).   The last two years the Angels have a record of 17-32 (note - these last two years there has supposedly been considerable effort to turn this around).

 

This falls on the manager for not having his team ready to play coming out of the gate.  They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. I would say that some decision maker in the Angels FO is making a case for insanity by allowing Scioscia to continue to manage.

 

I do question if Sosh approach  makes it easier for the team to come out flat early.

 

However, Sosh is great at recognizing that it is a 6 month season and that poor starts early does not necessarily destroy a season and the team should just focus on improvement instead of panic.

[stormngt]

Why is it silly when the Angels have never been able to catch up following such awful performances April and May?   

They have caught up.  Five times!  They just haven't caught up the last two years.

[Torridd]

Angels haven't made the playoffs in 4 years. The Angels have had slow starts in the past 4 years. I would say that slow starts are a significant factor.

Something to think about. I guess the next step would be to check the records of the early months when the team did well to see if the stats sync.

[stormngt]

The key word is out. We just never get out of the gate to take an early lead. There's no excuse for that to happen 4 years in a row with that payroll.

Ok, you logic is stupid!

being one game out is not struggling!

 

The Angels have struggled the last two year.  I do agree Sosh may not be doing a good job getting the mentally ready to compete early.  But to suggest the team is "struggling" when they are one game out or tied for first on may 1 is stupid!

[yk9001]

Was Butcher the coach who claimed he slept like a baby throughout all the suckitude?

 

He's a perfect complement to Scioscia's "turn the page" mentality.   Two peas in a pod.  No need to worry.  Tomorrow's another day, and they are getting paid both today and tomorrow.

 

I'd take Hamilton's accountability partner as a new coach by this point.

[stormngt]

Angels haven't made the playoffs in 4 years. The Angels have had slow starts in the past 4 years. I would say that slow starts are a significant factor.

 

You obviously haven't been reading the post.  The Angels did not have a slow start in 2010 and 2011.

 

Now I can't say anything for 2012 and 13.

[Blarg]

RBIs are 99.9% useless.

until you are down a run then two are 100% necessary.