Dipoto and Mike are staying??

[Stradling]

I agree, Scioscia says you need to be 8 deep at starting pitching. But I also don't think you expect two of your performing starters to miss six and eight weeks.

[Angels]

Dipoto inherited a terrible farm system. Also, the Angels lost a few first round picks and were/are cash-strapped thanks to Moreno's insistence on making some "big splashes." Not really sure how Dipoto is to blame for the lack of depth. The Angels can't even give Trout an extension at the moment because they don't want to go over the luxury tax. Whose fault is that? Moreno's.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Angels

[19HALO71]

One has to go. When the problem is philosophical differences, you cannot change how one thinks the game should be played.

[Lifetime]

Look Poozy, no one is claiming injuries solely to blame for the Angels demise but it is a significant factor. When looking at the number of injuries, time lost to the DL, the significance of the players lost, and the well known lack of depth particularly on the pitching staff, injuries had a large impact. We already knew pitching was not where we needed it to be, especially the pen,  even before the season started. Then we added even more pressure on the already weak pen when starters couldn't even pitch through the 5th inning. Those injuries only made it worse. Pitching was awful early forcing the offense to try to make up the difference night in and night out. An offense that wasn't firing on all cylinders but was pressing to score 5+ runs a night to try to win games. That's way too much to put on an offense particularly one that has its prime  power hitter playing through a painful injury. 

 

Were injuries the entire problem? No of course not.But under the circumstances, the impact was immense. 

[Lifetime]

One has to go. When the problem is philosophical differences, you cannot change how one thinks the game should be played.

I don't think the so-called philosophical differences are all that great in reality. 

[NrM]

Look Poozy, no one is claiming injuries solely to blame for the Angels demise but it is a significant factor. When looking at the number of injuries, time lost to the DL, the significance of the players lost, and the well known lack of depth particularly on the pitching staff, injuries had a large impact. We already knew pitching was not where we needed it to be, especially the pen,  even before the season started. Then we added even more pressure on the already weak pen when starters couldn't even pitch through the 5th inning. Those injuries only made it worse. Pitching was awful early forcing the offense to try to make up the difference night in and night out. An offense that wasn't firing on all cylinders but was pressing to score 5+ runs a night to try to win games. That's way too much to put on an offense particularly one that has its prime  power hitter playing through a painful injury. 

 

Were injuries the entire problem? No of course not.But under the circumstances, the impact was immense. 

 

I agree with everything you said, but you always have to go into a season anticipating injuries. 

 

I'm not sure they had more significant injuries than average this year.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Poozy

[mtangelsfan]

I think lack of depth, poor play, curious management, injuries, bad trades and all around suckitude are what sunk the Angels in 2013. 

 

I think there is enough blame to go all around.  Players, coaching staff, management and ownership all need to look in the mirror and understand that they pretty much sucked.

[Jay]

I think lack of depth, poor play, curious management, injuries, bad trades and all around suckitude are what sunk the Angels in 2013. 

 

Aside from these, the Angels were pretty good.

[James]

I don't think the so-called philosophical differences are all that great in reality. 

I have been trying to understand why people think the differences are so great as well. Is Sosh not a "small ball" type manager still? Aren't those the type of players that a team which values saber stats look for? I am sure they have differences which can often be for the best but I am not sure if the differences are as wide as many, including the media, have suggested. 

 

I still wouldn't mind seeing a change in managers if they can get one of a handful of guys that would truly be worth replacing Sosh with. Those who say anyone is better are simply speaking out of frustration. 

[Lifetime]

I agree with everything you said, but you always have to go into a season anticipating injuries. 

 

I'm not sure they had more significant injuries than average this year.

Injuries of that magnitude? BS Poozy. It's not just the amount of injuries, it's how long and who those injuries were and those players'significance to the team. You say you agree with all of what I said but then you reply with something that doesn't jive. 

[NrM]

Injuries of that magnitude? BS Poozy. It's not just the amount of injuries, it's how long and who those injuries were and those players'significance to the team. You say you agree with all of what I said but then you reply with something that doesn't jive. 

Well, perhaps I don't value the impact of the players that got hurt as much as you do, specifically on the offensive side.  

Edited October 8, 2013 by Poozy

[Lifetime]

LOL. OK. 

[NrM]

I have been trying to understand why people think the differences are so great as well. Is Sosh not a "small ball" type manager still? Aren't those the type of players that a team which values saber stats look for? I am sure they have differences which can often be for the best but I am not sure if the differences are as wide as many, including the media, have suggested. 

 

I still wouldn't mind seeing a change in managers if they can get one of a handful of guys that would truly be worth replacing Sosh with. Those who say anyone is better are simply speaking out of frustration. 

 

Small ball and "saber stats" don't go together at all.

[Inside Pitch]

Dipoto inherited a terrible farm system. Also, the Angels lost a few first round picks and were/are cash-strapped thanks to Moreno's insistence on making some "big splashes." Not really sure how Dipoto is to blame for the lack of depth. The Angels can't even give Trout an extension at the moment because they don't want to go over the luxury tax. Whose fault is that? Moreno's.

 

 

Enough with this load of dung..   Bill Stoneman inherited a WORSE situation.  The big difference is he had a plan, he stuck to it and the players he added actually made the team better.  

 

Bil Stoneman didn't get to sign big name FA's his first few years on the job, he had to find role players that fit into his bigger picture.  He plucked a weak armed 2B with OBP skills off the discard pile and they made him into a starting MLB shortstop.  He traded Kimera Bartee for a speedy OFer with a glove that the team then used at every possible position and became the best lead-off hitter the team had seen since Tony Phillps.  He built a bullpen out of baling wire and tape, plucking guys with low walk rates and HR/9 rates off of waivers and independent leagues and put together one of the best bullpen units in baseball over a 5 year period.  Bill Stoneman got the Angels a young DH with a 30 HR season under his belt for Brian freaking Cooper.  He found a useful undervalued 2B and milked four seasons out of him at 1B.  He invested HEAVILY in the scouting department and crafted an international scouting department that had been dormant and went dormant once again after he was gone.  

 

Jerry Dipoto inherited a flawed team no doubt, but he's fallen well short of finding the sort of value that Stoneman was able to acquire for next to nothing -- this despite being spoken of as one of the more saber minded GM types in MLB.

 

I don't blame Dipoto for the state of the farm system even if he did trade away bits and pieces.  I blame him directly for signing two RPs who couldn't even throw a baseball and calling the bullpen done.  I blame him for taking a perfectly serviceable RP with 4 years of service time and trading him for a 4th year arbitration eligible pitcher who was A - oft injured and B - a 5 inning pitcher when he WAS healthy.  Blanton was an experiment that went wrong, fine..  Give him a mulligan on that if you want but other than Frieri, and possibly Schuck who is nothing more than a 4th OFer you can't really point to anything he's done as having made the team better and Frieri came at a cost significantly higher than anything Bill Stoneman did.  Edit: CJ has been what they expected.

 

Jerry Dipoto has become the Anti-Bill Bavasi in the sense that where Bavasi seemed to have people defend him because of the perception that Disney didn't allow him to spend, Dipoto gets a free pass cause all the mistakes are pawned off on a spend happy owner who is throwing money away.  Like Bavasi, JD is liked for his willingness to engage the press and fan base, they both said a lot of things that people wanted to hear and did a great job of painting a pretty picture but neither one of them seem capable of putting together a team who's skills meshed well.  Bill Stoneman was boring, tight lipped and not very personable but also knew how to build a team.  I still think Dipoto could do that -- but I'm finding it harder to just ignore what he HAS and hasn't done.  

 

For me, it's put up or shut up time.  This is his team now, whether or not he was the reason for Pujols and Hamilton, I really don't care, there are enough GOOD pieces he inherited in place for him to fill the gaps.  I'd like to see some semblance of a backbone out of JD, be that telling Arte he needs to accept going over the luxury cap or telling him he needs to fire MS and butt out of the baseball decisions.  But he needs to actually man up and become the final word on baseball matters -- you know, like he said he was in those interviews two years ago.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

I agree with everything you said, but you always have to go into a season anticipating injuries. 

 

I'm not sure they had more significant injuries than average this year.

 

The lack of depth meant the team had almost zero wiggle room.  That lack of depth is also what makes signing two guys who couldn't throw and trading for a sore armed SP all the more damning IMO.

[Inside Pitch]

I think lack of depth, poor play, curious management, injuries, bad trades and all around suckitude are what sunk the Angels in 2013. 

 

I think there is enough blame to go all around.  Players, coaching staff, management and ownership all need to look in the mirror and understand that they pretty much sucked.

 

Everything that could go wrong seemed to go wrong.  It was a Murphy's Law type season.  Everything is magnified when that happens.

[Jay]

Like Bavasi, JD is liked for his willingness to engage the press and fan base, they both said a lot of things that people wanted to hear and did a great job of painting a pretty picture but neither one of them seem capable of putting together a team who's skills meshed well.

 

yep

[Brandon]

Everything that could go wrong seemed to go wrong. It was a Murphy's Law type season. Everything is magnified when that happens.

It did remind me of the Chiefs last season of everything that could go wrong did. Just glad the Angels didn't have to deal with a murder-suicide at the stadium.

[Mark68]

Enough with this load of dung..   Bill Stoneman inherited a WORSE situation.  The big difference is he had a plan, he stuck to it and the players he added actually made the team better.  

 

Bil Stoneman didn't get to sign big name FA's his first few years on the job, he had to find role players that fit into his bigger picture.  He plucked a weak armed 2B with OBP skills off the discard pile and they made him into a starting MLB shortstop.  He traded Kimera Bartee for a speedy OFer with a glove that the team then used at every possible position and became the best lead-off hitter the team had seen since Tony Phillps.  He built a bullpen out of baling wire and tape, plucking guys with low walk rates and HR/9 rates off of waivers and independent leagues and put together one of the best bullpen units in baseball over a 5 year period.  Bill Stoneman got the Angels a young DH with a 30 HR season under his belt for Brian freaking Cooper.  He found a useful undervalued 2B and milked four seasons out of him at 1B.  He invested HEAVILY in the scouting department and crafted an international scouting department that had been dormant and went dormant once again after he was gone.  

 

Jerry Dipoto inherited a flawed team no doubt, but he's fallen well short of finding the sort of value that Stoneman was able to acquire for next to nothing -- this despite being spoken of as one of the more saber minded GM types in MLB.

 

I don't blame Dipoto for the state of the farm system even if he did trade away bits and pieces.  I blame him directly for signing two RPs who couldn't even throw a baseball and calling the bullpen done.  I blame him for taking a perfectly serviceable RP with 4 years of service time and trading him for a 4th year arbitration eligible pitcher who was A - oft injured and B - a 5 inning pitcher when he WAS healthy.  Blanton was an experiment that went wrong, fine..  Give him a mulligan on that if you want but other than Frieri, and possibly Schuck who is nothing more than a 4th OFer you can't really point to anything he's done as having made the team better and Frieri came at a cost significantly higher than anything Bill Stoneman did.  Edit: CJ has been what they expected.

 

Jerry Dipoto has become the Anti-Bill Bavasi in the sense that where Bavasi seemed to have people defend him because of the perception that Disney didn't allow him to spend, Dipoto gets a free pass cause all the mistakes are pawned off on a spend happy owner who is throwing money away.  Like Bavasi, JD is liked for his willingness to engage the press and fan base, they both said a lot of things that people wanted to hear and did a great job of painting a pretty picture but neither one of them seem capable of putting together a team who's skills meshed well.  Bill Stoneman was boring, tight lipped and not very personable but also knew how to build a team.  I still think Dipoto could do that -- but I'm finding it harder to just ignore what he HAS and hasn't done.  

 

For me, it's put up or shut up time.  This is his team now, whether or not he was the reason for Pujols and Hamilton, I really don't care, there are enough GOOD pieces he inherited in place for him to fill the gaps.  I'd like to see some semblance of a backbone out of JD, be that telling Arte he needs to accept going over the luxury cap or telling him he needs to fire MS and butt out of the baseball decisions.  But he needs to actually man up and become the final word on baseball matters -- you know, like he said he was in those interviews two years ago.

You forgot that JD found the guy who was probably the best bullpen arm this year: DDLR.

 

As far as Madson and Burnett are concerned, Madson was a cheap gamble. Burnett had averaged 70 appearances for the previous five years, and had bone spur surgery in October. Bone spurs are not generally an issue (CJ had that surgery last offseason as well). But for a few, it may lead to forearm stiffness and irritation, which is what happened to Burnett. Both Blanton and Hanson were experiments, and in Hanson's case, JD traded a guy that everybody on here was frustrated with anyway, so how does this become a problem for Dipoto? Oh yeah, hindsight.

 

Stoneman also built the team through drafts, which is what JD is trying to do as well, but it takes years for drafts to bear fruit.

 

The Pujols and Hamilton signings, driven by the owner, who basically tells his GM to fill in the rest of the team around those contracts, immediately make the GM's job harder. Especially if the owner refuses to increase the budget enough to get the additional help his GM needs. And as for Dipoto's "lack of backbone", YOU try telling your boss that he needs to stop meddling and give you the final say-so on how to run the company. Let's see how long you stay employed...

[Lifetime]

I love the way speculation about Arte strong arming acquisitions has now turned into fact of the matter in these discussions. 

[Mark68]

I love the way speculation about Arte strong arming acquisitions has now turned into fact of the matter in these discussions. 

Deny it if you will, but there is no question that Arte was personally involved in both the Pujols and Hamilton negotiations.

 

Or does he regularly have conversations with other teams' players out of habit?

[mtangelsfan]

If JD was trying to build through the draft why is he making huge FA aquisitions that cost him draft picks?  Wouldn't that be the exact opposite?

[Lifetime]

Of course he was, as I have spoken to numerous times in these discussions. Being involved in the negotiations and strong arming acquisitions or forcing the hand of the GM in these acquisitions is a much different thing. There is no substantiation for that speculation yet it is being argued incessantly as fact. It's not unusual for owners to get involved in the signing of high profile players, in fact, it's smart business. 

[Mark68]

If JD was trying to build through the draft why is he making huge FA aquisitions that cost him draft picks?  Wouldn't that be the exact opposite?

This is if you assume that JD was solely responsible for the FA acquisitions.

[Stradling]

The team is in a win now situation. Jerry will continue to draft a ton of pitchers because as we've seen they are the most important commodity in the game. I would be ok with just trading to acquire the starters needed to compete.