Dipoto and Mike are staying??

[mtangelsfan]

This is if you assume that JD was solely responsible for the FA acquisitions.

 

Even if he is partially to blame then it's not accurate to say his plan is to build from the draft. 

[Inside Pitch]

I love the way speculation about Arte strong arming acquisitions has now turned into fact of the matter in these discussions. 

 

 

Yeah, I don't know what the real story is -- I'm willing to give Dipoto the benefit of the doubt but at the same time -- a GM that's willing to risk his reputation by caving into his owner isn't the sort of GM I want putting the Angels together.   So for me -- whether or not HE made the call, he still didn't seem all that interested in arguing against it.

 

I'll say this much -- there was  ALOT of conversation and articles that went into how masterfully Dipoto and company went about wooing Pujols and the way they used work elevators and the sort to get to him.  So, if he didn't have anything to do with that -- he sure seemed to revel in the praise and adulation when it was going down.

[Vladfan]

Are they both still employed by the Angels???

 

 

Just checking.

[tdawg87]

I thought I read that JD presented the idea of Pujols/Wilson to Arte and sold him on it.

 

Could be wrong.

[Inside Pitch]

You forgot that JD found the guy who was probably the best bullpen arm this year: DDLR.

 

As far as Madson and Burnett are concerned, Madson was a cheap gamble. Burnett had averaged 70 appearances for the previous five years, and had bone spur surgery in October. Bone spurs are not generally an issue (CJ had that surgery last offseason as well). But for a few, it may lead to forearm stiffness and irritation, which is what happened to Burnett. Both Blanton and Hanson were experiments, and in Hanson's case, JD traded a guy that everybody on here was frustrated with anyway, so how does this become a problem for Dipoto? Oh yeah, hindsight.

 

Stoneman also built the team through drafts, which is what JD is trying to do as well, but it takes years for drafts to bear fruit.

 

The Pujols and Hamilton signings, driven by the owner, who basically tells his GM to fill in the rest of the team around those contracts, immediately make the GM's job harder. Especially if the owner refuses to increase the budget enough to get the additional help his GM needs. And as for Dipoto's "lack of backbone", YOU try telling your boss that he needs to stop meddling and give you the final say-so on how to run the company. Let's see how long you stay employed...

 

You know what -- a person can make an excuse for every move ever by a GM.   Madson and Burnett were hurt and UNABLE to throw when they were signed.  Why is that so hard to understand?  If you sign two guys who CAN'T throw then youre taking significant risk, and you best be signing fall-back options in case they arent ready to answer the bell on opening day.   The fact that the Angels were scouring the waiver wires and made the trade for DDL is because he missed the boat on BOTH of his primary bullpen acquisitions.   Spare me the BS about CJ had the same surgery -- because it's irrelevant.  Many years ago Ken Hill had the same surgery and was done.   Different people, different levels of "injury" and different recoveries.  It was an ignorant gamble made even more precarious because he had traded away a reliever on yet another high risk gamble -- please feel free to dig up my comments on that trade when it happened if before you talk about hindsight.   

 

Everyone seems to have decided to pawn the Pujols and Hamilton deals on Moreno,   Except when Pujols was signed everyone and their brother wrote at length about how expertly Dipoto handled that -- CJ Wilson was quoted as saying Dipoto hinted at the team working on something major behind the scenes.   All the talk about secret meetings and the sort was everywhere and there stood JD beaming with pride when it happened.   Now it's Arte's fault.   BULL EFFING SHIT....  

 

As far as your comparing MLB to any other job.  Get real.   A GM of a baseball team isn't like other jobs but since you brought it up,  I have in fact stood up to my bosses and stood my ground when it was my reputation on the line.  They listened to me, because well, I had a track record of being right. That track record and the success I'd enjoyed allowed me to branch off on my own and take most everyone that worked under me with me....  Considering most of the people that followed me were willing to relocate to IL and FL, I'd argue my having stood my ground instilled them with the confidence to take that leap of faith.   Again, it all depends on what the job and industry is.  But when you're the guy who's ass in on the line based on the success or failure of a venture, you're an idiot if you allow someone else drive your business for you.

 

Show me a GM that cowers to his owner and I'll show you a team that has no respect for their GM....

Edited October 8, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

I thought I read that JD presented the idea of Pujols/Wilson to Arte and sold him on it.

 

Could be wrong.

 

Thats what I remember too -- but hey... Operation Teflon Jerry has been underway for a long long time.   

Edited October 8, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[T.G.]

I love the way speculation about Arte strong arming acquisitions has now turned into fact of the matter in these discussions. 

 

Short of a public announcement by Arte Moreno - all we have to go on is what we've read and heard... recent pieces by Jon Heyman and Scott Miller were enough to convince me.  To me that's more than speculation.  I doubt these well respected writers pulled information out of thin air.

[kevinb]

I love the way speculation about Arte strong arming acquisitions has now turned into fact of the matter in these discussions. 

LT there were plenty of articles a couple months ago that basically most baseball writers and there sources said that Pujols and Hamilton were basically all Arte and Vernon Wells was all Arte as well threatening firing to Reagins. I don't know what more sources you would like. There will never be a video or a written email of Arte saying these things but baseball writers have all but agreed that Arte was the driving factor of the decline of the Angels.

[kevinb]

Thats what I remember too -- but hey.  Operation Teflon Jerry has been underway for a long long time.   

Jerry and Mike need to be fired.  A new GM needs to be brought in so he can bring his own manager in. It makes no sense to fire Mike and then in a year fire Dipoto after another bad year. Or fire Jerry then have the new GM not be able to pick his own manager. They both deserve firing for the last couple years of no playoffs. End of story.

[T.G.]

Links to the articles I mentioned:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/scott-miller/23286878/broken-angels-tense-atmosphere-nearly-included-pujols-hunter-fight-in-2012

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/23287160/while-dipoto-or-scioscia-will-lose-angels-blame-game-owner-is-far-from-clean

[Lifetime]

LT there were plenty of articles a couple months ago that basically most baseball writers and there sources said that Pujols and Hamilton were basically all Arte and Vernon Wells was all Arte as well threatening firing to Reagins. I don't know what more sources you would like. There will never be a video or a written email of Arte saying these things but baseball writers have all but agreed that Arte was the driving factor of the decline of the Angels.

every single one of those articles was pure speculation. It's still pure speculation with zero foundation. Sports writers are not reliable sources particularly when they clearly indicate they are speculating. Then they feed off of each other perpetuating the speculation.

[T.G.]

Both writers site sources inside and outside the organization...they don't name their sources - but it's clearly not speculation.  they're not "guessing" this stuff happened - they're basing it on what those familiar with the situations are telling them.

Edited October 8, 2013 by True Grich

[Vladfan]

Jerry and Mike need to be fired.  A new GM needs to be brought in so he can bring his own manager in. It makes no sense to fire Mike and then in a year fire Dipoto after another bad year. Or fire Jerry then have the new GM not be able to pick his own manager. They both deserve firing for the last couple years of no playoffs. End of story.

pffffftttt

[Inside Pitch]

LT there were plenty of articles a couple months ago that basically most baseball writers and there sources said that Pujols and Hamilton were basically all Arte and Vernon Wells was all Arte as well threatening firing to Reagins. I don't know what more sources you would like. There will never be a video or a written email of Arte saying these things but baseball writers have all but agreed that Arte was the driving factor of the decline of the Angels.

 

 

The whole thing is soooo murky...   I can see the Hamilton deal being dirven by Arte..  But there was so much written about JD and the Pujols chase when it happened that I'm less sold on that having been Arte..   And if it was, then JD is a douche for taking so much credit at the time.

[Inside Pitch]

Jerry and Mike need to be fired.  A new GM needs to be brought in so he can bring his own manager in. It makes no sense to fire Mike and then in a year fire Dipoto after another bad year. Or fire Jerry then have the new GM not be able to pick his own manager. They both deserve firing for the last couple years of no playoffs. End of story.

 

I just want to know that the GM is actually the guy making the baseball decisions.  I don't think any of us knows who is running the show right now and that's whats troubling.  For me anyway.

 

[Lifetime]

The whole thing is soooo murky... I can see the Hamilton deal being dirven by Arte.. But there was so much written about JD and the Pujols chase when it happened that I'm less sold on that having been Arte.. And if it was, then JD is a douche for taking so much credit at the time.

even Hamilton met with Dipoto at winter meetings for Preliminary discussions. Moreno wisely got involved to seal the deal on both signings. Who better to sell a prospective FA on the merits of becoming part of the Angels family? Nice personal touch. It was a prudent business decision. Dipoto initiated the deals and Moreno closed them. The notion that it was all Arte and he forced Dipoto's hand on these deals is baloney. On big money deals like these, it's not unusual for an owner to get involved in the process.

[tennischmp]

"People familiar with those two deals say Moreno was the driving force behind them"

 

Woops

[Lifetime]

LOL riiiight.

[mtangelsfan]

Heresay

[tennischmp]

I'm sure the only way you would believe the quote is if Arte came out and said it but he never will so this point is moot.

[Lifetime]

And some people like you will believe anything a sports writer writes speculative or not.

[mtangelsfan]

There might be other things.  I'm with IP in that it's easier to think Arte was the driving force behind the Hamilton signing, but Dipoto was all over the screen during the Pujols signing. 

 

I will have a hard time ever believing he wasn't heavily involved in that one.  Regardless, he shouldn't get a full pass and neither should Arte and neither should Sosh. 

[tennischmp]

And some people like you will believe anything a sports writer writes speculative or not.

Everything is speculative. You believe what you want to believe. Arte is not going to come out and admit it so everything is going to be hearsay. I'm sure if the quote supported your point you wouldn't be brushing it off like you are.

[Lifetime]

So you agree it's speculation. Good.

[tdawg87]

I'm sure the only way you would believe the quote is if Arte came out and said it

 

Lets not get ahead of ourselves now.