Dipoto and Mike are staying??

[ten ocho recon scout]

Curious scout, what does that tell you?

So, aside from Arte being behind signing Pujols, which by the way as an owner making that large of an investment he'd have to be in a significant way, what is the a lot more behind it your sources revealed?

I purposely left it vague, LT. I have no problem with you (or snyone else here) not believing me. I myself would be leary of some random person posting on the internet. All I can say is I'm acuainted with people who are acquainted with people. I hear things in conversations at the water cooler, so to speak.

And to ne fair, I don't know moreno or dipoto etc, so even what I've been told could be false.

That said, down the road, when the people were talking about today are gone, ill be happy to say 'thays what I was getting at 5 years ago'.

And then ill look like I'm lying from hindsight

(But remember, I'm the one who dropped the pujols hunt in october 2011 before this site switched....)

[Lifetime]

The fact is, your assertion that Arte had nothing to do with it is no different than ours that he did.

 

In fact, saying something publicly has nothing to do with fact.  Considering there is far more evidence that Arte was involved than he wasn't, you are the one grasping for straws and turning speculation to fact.

The fact is, I haven't argued that Arte had nothing to do with it, in fact, I have argued my opinion on just what he did and why it makes sense from a business standpoint. It's pretty clear it's my opinion and I make no attempt to claim it as anything else. I haven't turned any speculation to fsct. Nice try though. 

[Lifetime]

Lifetime, you have argued here very very strongly as if you are stating fact and then when you are called on it you pull the "just my opinion card."  In fact you have done it in this thread.  Cut the bullshit man.

Yes nate, cut the bullshit

[Stradling]

Jesus this is getting old.

[Lifetime]

Wow

[mtangelsfan]

Do you guys need rulers?

[nate]

However you measure it.  Mine is bigger.  

[Scott34]

You can call me queen bee.

[Tyler]

[YouthofToday]

I'll try to answer this for you B. YoT is full of it and doesn't have sources and I wouldn't expect Scott, who I believe is 18 or 19, to have sources five years ago because he was in middle school at the time, maybe grade school.

If you are so inclined PM me.

[T.G.]

OK, let's look at that evidence TG. Do you know exactly what influence and involvement Arte had in the acquisitions of Pujols, Hamilton or even Wells. Do you know the level of involvement and agreement with those acquisitions Dipoto and even Scioscia had? Do you know for a fact that those acquisitions were Arte's from conception and that he forced them on Dipoto and Scioscia despite their preference to move a different direction? 

 

LT - Frankly, those are stupid questions.  Of course I don't know the answers to those specific questions.  I'm not inside the Angels organization.  The writers got their information from sources either in the Angels organization or close to each specific situation.  That's good enough for me.  It's reasonable to believe what they have said about Arte. 

 

I'm now officially done with this topic.

[Lifetime]

You can't answer those questions with specificity because we don't have that information including from the vague inferences given by the writers that supposedly have inside information. The point of those "stupid" questions is that those are exactly what things are being assumed or implied as facts while many use those assumptions as a basis for ridicule and abhorrence toward Arte et al. Those questions are the accusations being leveled about the organization yet all we truly have to support them are vague inferences and, wait for it.....  speculation. Apparently that's good enough for you. It's not for me and that dissention of your opinion really seems to bother you. 

[Stradling]

I know I am speculating but I believe part of why Arte is keeping Dipoto is because Arte was a huge part of bringing in Pujols and Hamilton. With how bad those contracts have been most other GM's would have been let go if it was their decision to bring those guys in.

[Lifetime]

Big FA signings fail to live up to expectations or contract value all the time. When has a GM been fired for these kind of acquisitions 2 years in? 

[Stradling]

Big free agent signings do fail all the time, but not in year one of a five year $125 million contract or year two of a ten year $250 million contract.

[Lifetime]

GM should be held accountable for an unexpected and unpredictable early fail? Is there any precedent for saying most other GM 's would have been fired? 

[YouthofToday]

GM should be held accountable for an unexpected and unpredictable early fail? Is there any precedent for saying most other GM 's would have been fired?

No.

[Blarg]

after sex, I often tell women two minutes in heaven is better than one minute in heaven.

Nice reference to business socks.

[Mark68]

You know what -- a person can make an excuse for every move ever by a GM.   Madson and Burnett were hurt and UNABLE to throw when they were signed.  Why is that so hard to understand?  If you sign two guys who CAN'T throw then youre taking significant risk, and you best be signing fall-back options in case they arent ready to answer the bell on opening day.   The fact that the Angels were scouring the waiver wires and made the trade for DDL is because he missed the boat on BOTH of his primary bullpen acquisitions.   Spare me the BS about CJ had the same surgery -- because it's irrelevant.  Many years ago Ken Hill had the same surgery and was done.   Different people, different levels of "injury" and different recoveries.  It was an ignorant gamble made even more precarious because he had traded away a reliever on yet another high risk gamble -- please feel free to dig up my comments on that trade when it happened if before you talk about hindsight.   

 

Everyone seems to have decided to pawn the Pujols and Hamilton deals on Moreno,   Except when Pujols was signed everyone and their brother wrote at length about how expertly Dipoto handled that -- CJ Wilson was quoted as saying Dipoto hinted at the team working on something major behind the scenes.   All the talk about secret meetings and the sort was everywhere and there stood JD beaming with pride when it happened.   Now it's Arte's fault.   BULL EFFING SHIT....  

 

As far as your comparing MLB to any other job.  Get real.   A GM of a baseball team isn't like other jobs but since you brought it up,  I have in fact stood up to my bosses and stood my ground when it was my reputation on the line.  They listened to me, because well, I had a track record of being right. That track record and the success I'd enjoyed allowed me to branch off on my own and take most everyone that worked under me with me....  Considering most of the people that followed me were willing to relocate to IL and FL, I'd argue my having stood my ground instilled them with the confidence to take that leap of faith.   Again, it all depends on what the job and industry is.  But when you're the guy who's ass in on the line based on the success or failure of a venture, you're an idiot if you allow someone else drive your business for you.

 

Show me a GM that cowers to his owner and I'll show you a team that has no respect for their GM....

CJ having the same surgery is certainly NOT irrelevant, because it was THE SAME SURGERY. Of course, not all surgeries have the same end result. Some surgeries are more successful than others, but bone spur surgery is one of those that are considered minor and for the vast majority of cases, ends up being no big deal. For that matter, most Tommy John surgeries have an approximate recovery time of one year, which means that in the majority of cases, a year after surgery, the pitcher/patient should be working on his rehab. But again, not all surgeries have the same end result. But, percentage-wise, both Burnett and Madson should have been able to make contributions this year. The likelihood of both pitchers having a grand total of 9 2/3 innings pitched this year was minimal. This is not ignorance, this is a calculated risk.

 

Now, if you think that trading Walden was also ignorance, then we'll have to agree to disagree. There were many posts on here about how Walden was too inconsistent, couldn't find the plate, etc, and needed to go. So you must have been in the minority, or even the silent majority, regardless, he traded an inconsistent reliever for an inconsistent starter who was only 26, cost-controlled, and was only two years removed from a season in which he had an ERA under 4 and a WHIP under 1.2.

 

You will also find that I was not one of the ones praising Dipoto for the Pujols signing, I was very vocal in preferring Fielder to Pujols for the exact reasons that have manifested themselves since Pujols' arrival. I happen to believe that if it was truly Dipoto's call, Fielder would have been playing first base the last two years instead of the one-and-a-half years that we have seen Pujols play there. Admittedly, we will never know that, but as someone who says that he follows sabermetrics, Dipoto had to think that Fielder would be a better signing. After the signing was made, my feelings on the matter were that the deal was going to look bad in a few years, Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY thought it was going to go this bad this soon.

 

As far as the GM being different than other jobs, that's not entirely true. The GM does not own the business, therefore, he works for someone else. If that someone else wants to make a move that the employee disagrees with, but the employee has only been at his job for only two months (in the case of the Pujols signing) or a little over a year (in the case of the Hamilton signing), that's really not enough time to have acquired the gravitas to be able to step in and say, "No, this is not the right move to make". You can't build a track record overnight.

 

Who knows, maybe he did tell Arte that Hamilton or Pujols was not the direction that he should go in, and Arte did what he wanted anyway. As the owner, that is his prerogative. He wouldn't be the first owner of a sports franchise to do so, and he certainly will not be the last.

 

Look, there's plenty of blame to go around for the shitstorm that was 2013. The owner, the front office, the on-field management and coaches, and the players all left their indelible mark on this craptastic season. But there has got to be a reason that most managers don't stay in one place for more than 10-12 years, and there is also a reason that most general managers are given at least 4-5 years to enact their "vision".

[ten ocho recon scout]

Nice reference to business socks.

We have to seperate the recyclables....that's not part of it but its still important.