Details on why Shohei Ohtani was not traded

[T.G.]

7 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Roger Lodge made a great point earlier today.

You listen to Lodge?

I see you in a whole different light now 

[ten ocho recon scout]

27 minutes ago, T.G. said:

You listen to Lodge?

I see you in a whole different light now 

Even I feel dirty.

And funny enough, my partner at work heard the same stupid Lodge crap I did, and the first thing I said to him was "dude, don't listen to that guy, he's a clown". (And then I realized I had been listening to the post game show for an hour too)

[79CAAman]

2 hours ago, T.G. said:

You listen to Lodge?

I see you in a whole different light now 

When you talk as much as Losge does, you’re bound to say something that makes sense every now and then. 

[cals]

A few things:

(1) It’s very rare for a traded player to return to the team that traded him.  Aroldis Chapman is the only one that come to my mind.

(2) The only thing that might make Ohtani’s trade value higher in the off-season is more teams involved.  That’s it.  I can’t imagine a GM of a MLB team would see another MVP and have that affect his judgement.  And Judge will win the AL MVP this season anyways.

(3) You only look stupid for letting a legend go if he achieves further greatness after. Nobody harps on the Cards for Pujols or the Mariners for Arod.  And those guys were generational players until they weren’t.  Ohtani could excel for another decade or for another 2 months.  Trout’s contract could be Pujols-esque in a few years.  So acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the “dumb team traded a legend” scenario is inevitable is wrong.  It could go either way.

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 minutes ago, cals said:

 

(3) You only look stupid for letting a legend go if he achieves further greatness after. Nobody harps on the Cards for Pujols or the Mariners for Arod.  And those guys were generational players until they weren’t.  Ohtani could excel for another decade or for another 2 months.  Trout’s contract could be Pujols-esque in a few years.  So acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the “dumb team traded a legend” scenario is inevitable is wrong.  It could go either way.

It's also a factor whether Legend that leaves goes off and plays for winning teams. If Babe Ruth was sold to the 1920s Angels, for example, he wouldn't be remembered like he is today. But he went off to a team that dominated, so the legend was born.

Then there's the other side of the argument...

... anyone who would laugh at the Angels for trading Ohtani would be the same people to laugh at the Angels for having Ohtani, and not winning.

We've had Trout and Ohtani for a few years now and haven't won. (In typical Angel luck I don't think either has played healthy the same year as the other). But nobody is "not laughing" at us right now with both.

[Docwaukee]

It's just a pure cluster where they're even in a spot as a franchise to consider trading him.  Or that he might not want to stay.  

[Lou]

7 hours ago, stormngt said:

It's hard to turn down 400+ million guaranteed.

 

7 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Soto just did. 

True, but that was over 15 years. The offer was less than $30M per year.

[Angel Oracle]

5 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Even I feel dirty.

And funny enough, my partner at work heard the same stupid Lodge crap I did, and the first thing I said to him was "dude, don't listen to that guy, he's a clown". (And then I realized I had been listening to the post game show for an hour too)

I just refer to him as Doyyer Dodge, as he tries to dodge around being a Doyyers fan.

[Stradling]

11 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Not true. That's like saying all men are jerks or all women only care about money. There are absolutely fans that would rather Shohei stay with the Angels and lose.

Name someone on AngelsWin that believes that.  

[Fake Chow]

Do we even trust Perry to maximize the return on an Ohtani trade?  He didn't wow me personally with this past trade deadline.

[BigVladdy]

14 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

20 hours ago, BigVladdy said:

We'd all rather win without Shohei than lose with him.

Not true. That's like saying all men are jerks or all women only care about money. There are absolutely fans that would rather Shohei stay with the Angels and lose.

Yes, you're probably correct. Seems that's how our owner feels.

As much as I like Shohei, seems stupid to ME.

[Ron Mexico]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044474-shohei-ohtani-rumors-mlb-exec-says-angels-arte-moreno-is-afraid-to-ever-trade-him

[ThisismineScios]

Curious as to how our beat writers never have any info on what Moreno does or says. It always comes from Rosenthal, Heyman, or Morosi. We never get OCR or LA Times articles about what he’s thinking or what he told the front office. Nobody is connected to the front office? 

[ThisismineScios]

3 minutes ago, Ron Mexico said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044474-shohei-ohtani-rumors-mlb-exec-says-angels-arte-moreno-is-afraid-to-ever-trade-him

A rival executive is speculating that Arte Moreno is afraid to trade the most talented player of this generation. This isn’t news….

[Ron Mexico]

8 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

A rival executive is speculating that Arte Moreno is afraid to trade the most talented player of this generation. This isn’t news….

It's huge news if Arte would Rather him walk away for nothing rather than Trading him .

[floplag]

18 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

A rival executive is speculating that Arte Moreno is afraid to trade the most talented player of this generation. This isn’t news….

He isnt afraid to trade him, he didnt want to lose the gate receipts.   Thats all any of this is to him.   He came in with such fire and hope but at this point hes lost me 100%.  Im finding it hard to even watch this club right now with what hes done to it. Some of you may be happy just getting some occasional Trout/Ohtani highlights in losses, im not. 

[Vlad27Trout27]

Yeah, He's afraid to lose all that money that othani brings in. He needs them Betts in them chairs and merchandise solid. Any cent counts for him 

[TroutField]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

He isnt afraid to trade him, he didnt want to lose the gate receipts.   Thats all any of this is to him.   He came in with such fire and hope but at this point hes lost me 100%.  Im finding it hard to even watch this club right now with what hes done to it. Some of you may be happy just getting some occasional Trout/Ohtani highlights in losses, im not. 

Same, I’m done with this team the way it’s operating.

I’m still a fan and always will be but if I have a choice to bring my kids to a Padres game or an Angels game, I’m making the drive down to San Diego to see an exciting team. This isn’t a product worth spending time or money on. We are the laughing stock of baseball. 

[ThisismineScios]

1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

It's huge news if Arte would Rather him walk away for nothing rather than Trading him .

It’s really not. Why anyone thinks this is newsworthy is beyond me. If you don’t want them to extend Ohtani, that’s fine. But a lot of Ohtani experts in this board believe Ohtani has already told the Angels he won’t re-sign. Nobody really believes that, right? Because that is the only logical way you pull the trigger on a trade—if you know he won’t re-sign. And maybe in fantasy baseball you sell right away. In real life baseball, you keep the all world talent until you know he’s leaving. No brainer. Bad business, bad strategy, and bad management to trade a superstar against his will.

[ten ocho recon scout]

10 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

It's just a pure cluster where they're even in a spot as a franchise to consider trading him.  Or that he might not want to stay.  

The sad part is that it's Trout redux. And with Trout at least, you understood it... bad drafts, pitchers out with TJ, etc etc

 

But here we are 5, 6 years later, and with the same problems.

 

With Trout I sort of gave a pass, because so many things went wrong. To have them continue to for a decade now is.... not even sure what the word is.

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, Ron Mexico said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10044474-shohei-ohtani-rumors-mlb-exec-says-angels-arte-moreno-is-afraid-to-ever-trade-him

I had to laugh at this.  Of course some rival exec would say something like this, probably one who wants Ohtani really bad.  Also interesting that he didn't identify himself as the rival exec who said this, like maybe....Dodgers?   I think the move to not trade him at this deadline was wise, yes the Angels might have gotten a little more for him now, but I don't believe the difference is that great if they do it in the offseason.  Plus in the coming off season they will know a great deal more of what is available to them, and also what are the most critical spots to fill, plus how soon.  A lot of things can be answered between now and the end of this season, we have 57 games to have a hard look at what is with us now.  In one sense there is no pressure to win, but in another there is a lot of pressure on the players we have to perform at their best just to have a shot at next year on this team.  Let's also see if Trout comes back and is effective this year.  The remainder of this season is really a critical time in my opinion.  Learn more, and prioritize where your weaknesses need to be retooled with new players, where you want to bet on a rebound on someone currently here, and please make an early decision in the offseason on what to do with the manager and coaching staff plus anyone else in the front office for that matter.  

 

[ThisismineScios]

8 minutes ago, tomsred said:

I had to laugh at this.  Of course some rival exec would say something like this, probably one who wants Ohtani really bad.  Also interesting that he didn't identify himself as the rival exec who said this, like maybe....Dodgers?   I think the move to not trade him at this deadline was wise, yes the Angels might have gotten a little more for him now, but I don't believe the difference is that great if they do it in the offseason.  Plus in the coming off season they will know a great deal more of what is available to them, and also what are the most critical spots to fill, plus how soon.  A lot of things can be answered between now and the end of this season, we have 57 games to have a hard look at what is with us now.  In one sense there is no pressure to win, but in another there is a lot of pressure on the players we have to perform at their best just to have a shot at next year on this team.  Let's also see if Trout comes back and is effective this year.  The remainder of this season is really a critical time in my opinion.  Learn more, and prioritize where your weaknesses need to be retooled with new players, where you want to bet on a rebound on someone currently here, and please make an early decision in the offseason on what to do with the manager and coaching staff plus anyone else in the front office for that matter.  

 

Couldn’t agree with this more, except logically they can get better pieces in the off-season than now. All the rebuild fantasy people want them to trade Ohtani for 5 prospects as though we are the Nationals. We aren’t. In the off-season, a team will give up an MLB player because they have time on replace them. At the deadline it’s all prospects. If Ohtani rejects their extension and says he is probably leaving, fine! Trade him! 

I agree we need to see a lot from our guys the rest of this year. I hate that the last two seasons, we’ve had a two month tryout. But that’s the way it is. At least our minors are better this year and we can possibly use it to trade a bit. 

[Second Base]

16 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Or the Angels - if they're good enough. I still believe that he wants to win with the Angels more than anything else. I think he likes the Angels, probably playing with Trout. But if they continue to suck, I think he'll go elsewhere. 

I'll give you that. But I don't see anything as of right now that suggests to me the Angels can win next year, even with aggressive moves in FA. But if they do win next year, it'll put them in better position for sure. 

 

[stormngt]

11 hours ago, cals said:

A few things:

(1) It’s very rare for a traded player to return to the team that traded him.  Aroldis Chapman is the only one that come to my mind.

(2) The only thing that might make Ohtani’s trade value higher in the off-season is more teams involved.  That’s it.  I can’t imagine a GM of a MLB team would see another MVP and have that affect his judgement.  And Judge will win the AL MVP this season anyways.

(3) You only look stupid for letting a legend go if he achieves further greatness after. Nobody harps on the Cards for Pujols or the Mariners for Arod.  And those guys were generational players until they weren’t.  Ohtani could excel for another decade or for another 2 months.  Trout’s contract could be Pujols-esque in a few years.  So acting like it’s a forgone conclusion that the “dumb team traded a legend” scenario is inevitable is wrong.  It could go either way.

1.  Is is false logic.  There is no causation that a player traded will not go back to team that traded them.  The real reason is probably because the player or team was not expecting them to return.

2.  I agree a second MVP would not make a significant increase in trade value.  However, I do not see the trade value dropping too much for an extra 8 weeks.

3.  Agree with your premise.  However, if a player is intending to go FA you have no choice but to trade him.  And AROD was pretty good after leaving Seattle.  His decline was after his yankee extension.  Noone complains about Seattle letting him walk because Texas outbid them while Arid was FA.

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

Curious as to how our beat writers never have any info on what Moreno does or says. It always comes from Rosenthal, Heyman, or Morosi. We never get OCR or LA Times articles about what he’s thinking or what he told the front office. Nobody is connected to the front office? 

That’s because none of this stuff comes from the Angels. It’s from other teams and their impression of what the Angels are doing, which may or may be based on what the Angels actually told them.