Details on why Shohei Ohtani was not traded

[Angels 1961]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

To be clear, I am not saying the Angels were “right” to keep Ohtani or that they are “right” to try to win in 2023.

I think they’re kind of screwed either way.

And given that, I understand why they’re picking this avenue. 
 

That’s all. 

For me they have been down this road for seven years. I feel the most talented player ever to play this game will test free agency. Keep him try and win next year but that will be his last year with Angels. Just decide early this winter.

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

To be clear, I am not saying the Angels were “right” to keep Ohtani or that they are “right” to try to win in 2023.

I think they’re kind of screwed either way. And I think they know that.

And given that, I understand why they’re picking this avenue. 
 

That’s all. 

Well that's encouraging.

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

If you have such doubts about the Angels’ ability to identify useful players among the major leaguers who are available to help now, why would you think they’d do better at picking from another team’s minor league players?

To be fair to Angels talent evaluators it is generally going to be a different group of people using different criteria when it comes to amateur and minor league player evaluation as opposed to whoever decided Kurt Suzuki was a good idea. Of course I agree, these guys likely suck too.

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

And btw, it's too late.  For next year for sure.  Maybe even for several years after that.  The only way you can 'solve' the problem now is to get really aggressive in ways that you haven't been.  That's my opinion.  You haven't completely burned this franchise to the ground as of yet but you might have to be willing to in order to get this shit to work and create an actual legit window.  And once again, you'll need a whole lotta luck.  And a whole lotta money that you're not likely to get.  

This is where I'm at. 

If Marsh/Adell/Walsh were better or at least the hope was there that we had our new core, I'd have a totally different opinion.

But as of now, they're a failed core. And I don't expect them to change that next year. Improve perhaps (Marsh not counting anymore), but I just can't see Walsh and Adell suddenly being good. Solid... maybe. But I don't see Walsh and Adell suddenly making us a good enough lineup to beat good lineups.

And that's the main problem. The teams shittieness in the Trout peak was understandable. "F'n dipoto!". But here we are, impressively, 3 presidents later... in the same boat.

I do think Adell can still turn a corner. I just don't see it being next year. And I think best case scenario for Walsh is Calhoun. Best case.

Then there's Trout / Rendon. I hate to be that guy, but based on the past few seasons, I'll have to see it to believe it that Trout is fine. (And I'll never complain about him even if he becomes an anchor). But with the time he's missed the past few years, and now the back diagnosis.... there's no reason for to think we might not be seeing the GA 2000-2003 vs the rest scenario, after he developed arthritis. 

Rendon I have no hope for. He may get better and still be a good player, but he's never going to be a 40 mill guy for us. Not at his age.

That leaves us with a very flawed young core, and a very questionable expensive vet presence. 

And still short on money, with no trade chips.

 

I'll leave everyone with this to consider. Saying we just need to build around Ohtani. It's not just that we couldn't do it under Trout, but that we added Ohtani, a once in a lifetime Ace AND plus hitter, to Trout, along with Rendon, and we've actually gotten worse. 

I just don't see adding another Free Agent big name guy as fixing anything. 

If Ohtani is willing to stay, sell him now on the idea of trading him and bringing him back. Because just locking him up for 400 million isn't going to fix anything.

[Angels 1961]

17 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

This is where I'm at. 

If Marsh/Adell/Walsh were better or at least the hope was there that we had our new core, I'd have a totally different opinion.

But as of now, they're a failed core. And I don't expect them to change that next year. Improve perhaps (Marsh not counting anymore), but I just can't see Walsh and Adell suddenly being good. Solid... maybe. But I don't see Walsh and Adell suddenly making us a good enough lineup to beat good lineups.

And that's the main problem. The teams shittieness in the Trout peak was understandable. "F'n dipoto!". But here we are, impressively, 3 presidents later... in the same boat.

I do think Adell can still turn a corner. I just don't see it being next year. And I think best case scenario for Walsh is Calhoun. Best case.

Then there's Trout / Rendon. I hate to be that guy, but based on the past few seasons, I'll have to see it to believe it that Trout is fine. (And I'll never complain about him even if he becomes an anchor). But with the time he's missed the past few years, and now the back diagnosis.... there's no reason for to think we might not be seeing the GA 2000-2003 vs the rest scenario, after he developed arthritis. 

Rendon I have no hope for. He may get better and still be a good player, but he's never going to be a 40 mill guy for us. Not at his age.

That leaves us with a very flawed young core, and a very questionable expensive vet presence. 

And still short on money, with no trade chips.

 

I'll leave everyone with this to consider. Saying we just need to build around Ohtani. It's not just that we couldn't do it under Trout, but that we added Ohtani, a once in a lifetime Ace AND plus hitter, to Trout, along with Rendon, and we've actually gotten worse. 

I just don't see adding another Free Agent big name guy as fixing anything. 

If Ohtani is willing to stay, sell him now on the idea of trading him and bringing him back. Because just locking him up for 400 million isn't going to fix anything.

I agree, this team is a mess. They do have some decent young pitchers but need so much more. Minasian will be selling his magic beans again this winter. Arte sticking with not trading Ohtani not good. To not even look at offers when this team is so bad is nuts. Trade or no trade Ohtani gone will be gone.

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

WHAT?????   "Babe Ruth went on to a "team that dominated" and THAT is why his legend was born?

They don't call Yankee Stadium "The house that the team that dominated built".

Ruth was hitting more home runs than other teams in total.  

About ready to nominate this post for an end of year award, and not a good one.

And rhe point goes right over your head.

Had Ruth gone to the Yankees, still being himself, but the team sucked, would he be remembered the same today?

This will require some thinking on your part so take a second.

Do you truly think if Trout didn't change a thing about himself that he would be viewed the same if he was an LA Dodger the past decade instead of an LA Angel?

Do you think if the Bulls didn't put together that 90s team that Jordan would be viewed today as he is? Or do you think he'd be viewed sort of how Clyde Drexler is?

You'll note Bill Russell is mentioned in the GOAT argument alongside Jordan. Do you truly think Russell was anywhere near the basketball player Jordan was? 

It's kind of like how Jeter gets overrated by so many (and underrated by the rest). Jeter was a HOF player, for good reason. But he was never the best player in the league. Not a single year. But he was the face of baseball. Because he was the face of the Yankees during their dynasty.

Think he would be remembered the same way today if he was Derek Jeter, Pittsburg Pirate? Or New York Met? 

Garrett Anderson was 3rd, behind only Jeter and Arod in hits, for literally a decade between 95 and 2005. Nobody ever thought that about GA.

And I'm pretty sure nobody today would ever even think that was true. Now imagine even how much more forgotten GA would be today if the Angels never won a WS.

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

If you have such doubts about the Angels’ ability to identify useful players among the major leaguers who are available to help now, why would you think they’d do better at picking from another team’s minor league players?

major vs. minor league scouting departments.  

they've been more successful on the minor league side than at the majors except when it's for a guy who's on the cusp of the bigs.

but that's what they keep doing by and large.  Nearly ready major league assets.  And the failure to evaluate current major league players. 

Again, I mentioned this before.  One of their biggest flaws has been a lack of awareness of what they are.  Trying to pretend they're something they aren't.  Which has led to a flawed and inappropriate use of resources whether for FA's, in trades or the hast with which they've tried to rebuild without being realistic. 

And for the record, I doubt that any of this is the pure fault of the major league scouting department.  Yet more of an org philosophy and perceived station relative to having certain players where if they had approached it correctly starting 7 years ago, they'd be in a much different spot.     

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

“Lose honor” and “save face”?

You know there is an edit button if you want work the word “rice” in there.

It wont happen... because with the team being so bad, not as many people are posting on here lately.

 

But I really hope more people get to read this. That was funny 

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

IF the Angels can get 5 solid players and 6 future draft picks for Ohtani (like the 1989 Cowboys got for Hershell Walker), then I would say go ahead and make the trade.    This would go along way toward a quick rebuild without banking excessive salary on one guy.

In honesty, you don't even need that in return. 

If they merely got a cost controlled SP out of it, and a solution at a position we need (Like Aybar at SS), IMO, the trade works out for us.

"But Ohtani is a once in a lifetime guy!"

He is. But we also have one yesr left with him (most likely). If you can parlay him into solving two problems it's a win. Getting more than that is a HUGE win.

And I think they can actually do it. 

I think everybody needs to accept there is no "fair to us" return for this once in a lifetime guy. And needs to think in terms of him as two players... one, a currently really good pitcher with 1 year left of club control. The other, a pretty good hitter with plus power, with one year left of club control.

The teams trading for him are going to have to be close enough to winning it all to be in play, because he's a FA in a year. And this team also has to have enough depth to make it worth it for the Angels.

That literally leaves very few teams. 

All 30 teams in baseball would love to have him. Maybe 10 can afford him in a year.

How many of them fit the above category? 

There's far more in the "may as well wait a year and try to just sign him instead of losing talent" group than the first.

So those expecting to get a package of cheap superstars back are probably going to be dissapointed.

 

[ThisismineScios]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think you might be missing part of the point.  It isn’t that people are predicting all those successes.  I think It is more that that it is the best thing to hope for.

If you have to bet on a 15-1 horse or a 10-1 horse, nobody is saying betting in the 10-1 horse feels great.

Yes. You don't want your team to suck? Keep your best players and try (and fail sometimes!) to build around them. Rebuilding in baseball is miserable. It's not a 2-3 year collect draft picks and prospects and watch them all become superstars type of process. Again, have you watched the Royals, Pirates, and Marlins. The Royals were .500 in 2016. In 2018, they actively started rebuilding. Guess what? Several of their best prospects from the last 4 years are reaching the majors now--and they are terrible. The Pirates? Since 2015. The Marlins? Full on tanking for 8-10 years. Stanton, Realmuto, Yelich, Ozuna...where are they now? With some really good pitchers and a bad lineup. I'm not down for that. I would rather have two incredible players and try every year. I don't believe the Angels are going to the World Series in 2023, or even making the playoffs. But I'd rather they went for it then full on tank and sell off. 

Look at the teams with the best farm systems. Most of them are really good now. Investing in development and drafting well is way more important than selling off, starting over, or tanking. 

[cals]

What I learned today is that downtown Carlsbad doesn’t understand what Munchausen syndrome is. 

[cals]

Now he’s gonna go look it up and try to explain why his nonsensical comparison worked.  Hurry Carlsbad, we’re waiting!

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, cals said:

What I learned today is that downtown Carlsbad doesn’t understand what Munchausen syndrome is. 

It's funny because with the way these guys are unwilling to go through a 3-5 year rebuild you gotta believe they must think they're dying.

[ThisismineScios]

6 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It's funny because with the way these guys are unwilling to go through a 3-5 year rebuild you gotta believe they must think they're dying.

Give the 3-5 year plan leading to contention. We are all ears. As are 12 other franchises that have tried and failed in the last...3-5 years.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 minutes ago, cals said:

What I learned today is that downtown Carlsbad doesn’t understand what Munchausen syndrome is. 

I thought it was an old, old wooden ship?

[AngelsLakersFan]

8 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

Give the 3-5 year plan leading to contention. We are all ears. As are 12 other franchises that have tried and failed in the last...3-5 years.  

Only 3 teams in the AL have a worse record than the Angels right now. The Angels have the most consecutive seasons playing under .500 ball and the third longest post-season drought in baseball. What is so exciting about this? If they do a full rebuild you probably wouldn't notice much difference as it's hard to suck more than they already do.

[Dtwncbad]

25 minutes ago, cals said:

What I learned today is that downtown Carlsbad doesn’t understand what Munchausen syndrome is. 

Speaking of simple comprehension, “some weird form of” acknowledges the imperfect comparison.  Maybe those simple, one-syllable words are tough for you to understand?

Nah, it’s just that once again your peculiar obsessive little boner for me is controlling you.

Bink.

 

[ThisismineScios]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Only 3 teams in the AL have a worse record than the Angels right now. The Angels have the most consecutive seasons playing under .500 ball and the third longest post-season drought in baseball. What is so exciting about this? If they do a full rebuild you probably wouldn't notice much difference as it's hard to suck more than they already do.

I get that. And I think Perry did a bad job building lineup depth, so when Rendon got hurt, Lorenzen started regressing, the bullpen struggled, and teams adjusted how they pitched us, the results flipped. There is zero excuse to allow Velazquez and Wade to ever start games, to trust Adell or Marsh to seize an OF job, or to bring back Suzuki as your second catcher. I also continue to watch guys like Ward, Walsh and Stassi crater, which is not Perry's fault. And we're a lot better with Rendon and Fletcher. So at least with an influx of prospects, we have some hope for the future and a chance at multiple players helping us. I get it and I'm not saying your preference is stupid. I'm just not sure why everyone thinks doing anything else is stupid.  I'm not a blind optimist, I happen to think their best path to success involves Ohtani. I respect those that are sick of mediocrity and want to try something dramatically different. I hate watching this team suck too. I happen to disagree, and think with better lineup depth, better bullpen options, better coaching, better health, and an influx of some young talent, the current core of Trout, Ohtani, Rendon, Ward, Rengifo, and Fletcher (utility) can be built upon. 

[Swordsman78]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

And rhe point goes right over your head.

Had Ruth gone to the Yankees, still being himself, but the team sucked, would he be remembered the same today?

This will require some thinking on your part so take a second.

Do you truly think if Trout didn't change a thing about himself that he would be viewed the same if he was an LA Dodger the past decade instead of an LA Angel?

Do you think if the Bulls didn't put together that 90s team that Jordan would be viewed today as he is? Or do you think he'd be viewed sort of how Clyde Drexler is?

You'll note Bill Russell is mentioned in the GOAT argument alongside Jordan. Do you truly think Russell was anywhere near the basketball player Jordan was? 

It's kind of like how Jeter gets overrated by so many (and underrated by the rest). Jeter was a HOF player, for good reason. But he was never the best player in the league. Not a single year. But he was the face of baseball. Because he was the face of the Yankees during their dynasty.

Think he would be remembered the same way today if he was Derek Jeter, Pittsburg Pirate? Or New York Met? 

Garrett Anderson was 3rd, behind only Jeter and Arod in hits, for literally a decade between 95 and 2005. Nobody ever thought that about GA.

And I'm pretty sure nobody today would ever even think that was true. Now imagine even how much more forgotten GA would be today if the Angels never won a WS.

Sorry to burst your bubble but alot of really good guys are very well respected and never played on a World Champion team.

Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Carl Yaztremski, Harmon Killebrew, Nolan Ryan, Tony Gwynn, Carlton Fisk etc.

Your Derek Jeter analogy is the only one that is relevant, a ave. to good player that was elevated by a superior team.  Several other HOF guys fall into that category as well.  

Trout and Ohtani are at maximum respect.  Ohtani is being compared to Ruth already.  So your case for them is null and void.

Baseball ia 50% entertainment.  They don't play for stats and rings in empty ball parks.   Hollywood was built on star power, like the 80's Lakers.   Ohtani and Trout are star power.

 

 

 

 

[cals]

50 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Speaking of simple comprehension, “some weird form of” acknowledges the imperfect comparison.  Maybe those simple, one-syllable words are tough for you to understand?

Nah, it’s just that once again your peculiar obsessive little boner for me is controlling you.

Bink.

 

Kisses!

[TempeAngel]

1 hour ago, ThisismineScios said:

I get that. And I think Perry did a bad job building lineup depth, so when Rendon got hurt, Lorenzen started regressing, the bullpen struggled, and teams adjusted how they pitched us, the results flipped. There is zero excuse to allow Velazquez and Wade to ever start games, to trust Adell or Marsh to seize an OF job, or to bring back Suzuki as your second catcher. I also continue to watch guys like Ward, Walsh and Stassi crater, which is not Perry's fault. And we're a lot better with Rendon and Fletcher. So at least with an influx of prospects, we have some hope for the future and a chance at multiple players helping us. I get it and I'm not saying your preference is stupid. I'm just not sure why everyone thinks doing anything else is stupid.  I'm not a blind optimist, I happen to think their best path to success involves Ohtani. I respect those that are sick of mediocrity and want to try something dramatically different. I hate watching this team suck too. I happen to disagree, and think with better lineup depth, better bullpen options, better coaching, better health, and an influx of some young talent, the current core of Trout, Ohtani, Rendon, Ward, Rengifo, and Fletcher (utility) can be built upon. 

WTF? Even Perry does not believe this. He took responsibility.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

major vs. minor league scouting departments. 

It’s all the same people when you’re talking about stuff at this level. 
 

We’re not talking about finding some filler for the AA roster. 

[TempeAngel]

1 minute ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It’s all the same people when you’re talking about stuff at this level. 
 

We’re not talking about finding some filler for the AA roster. 

So why are the same teams winning and the same teams losing?

[AngelsFaninGA]

5 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

If you have such doubts about the Angels’ ability to identify useful players among the major leaguers who are available to help now, why would you think they’d do better at picking from another team’s minor league players?

This is why I ultimately think they'll either get a haul of overrated prospects to begin with (such as from the Dodgers, who know when to sell high on prospects) or just ruin any players we get anyway. At least with Ohtani they can't really ruin him too much

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Swordsman78 said:

Baseball ia 50% entertainment.  They don't play for stats and rings in empty ball parks.   Hollywood was built on star power, like the 80's Lakers.   Ohtani and Trout are star power.

 

 

 

 

Literally go to any Angel game this weekend and check out the crowd... and when (if) Trout comes back this year, see if it's any different.

Then check out highlights from say an Atlanta game this year. Who's their star power? Acuna, perhaps... but aside from hard core fans, he's no national stud.

Who was the Giants big name in the last decade? Baumgardner? But they still had sold out crowds... because the team was good.

Mike Trout and Ohtani are both super duper stars.... amd nobody cares.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a better example.

Social media and ESPN are pretty full of Pujols fluff jobs the last year... about what a good old guy he is. A legend!

 

He's literally getting more pub now than he did when he wasn't a complete dud with us a few years ago... because as it turns out, the masses don't really care about good guys on losing teams. 

The list of names you posted.... 

 

... was Gwynn ever as popular as say Jeter? 

 

Was say Johnny Damon a Rockstar in KC? 

 

Vlad went to the hall as an Angel..... even though he was better as an Expo. Think the fact the Angels in the 2000s had anything to do with that?

As far as 3Bs go, for example. Think Beltre, or Justin Turner sold more jerseys? 

 

There's literally no way around it. Hard core fans adore great players, and are smart enough to know the good ones on bad teams vs overrated ones on good teams. But the masses dont. And so the narratives don't.

Going back to Ruth. Had he been traded to the Giants instead of the Yankees, numbers or not, he wouldn't be seen the same today. But he was a huge star, the star of the biggest team, that was the best team of his era.

Wilt was better than Russell. But the narrative disagrees.