Details on why Shohei Ohtani was not traded

[Angels 1961]

59 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I can’t even begin to understand why you wouldn’t try to win in 2023.

They do need some talent added to win.  And that isn’t easy.  But it definitely is no more difficult that orchestrating some massive rebuild.

Angels have shown last 7 seasons they cannot add talent to even have a winning season.

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I should have done that multi quote thing. 
 

But this is the same answer as I gave above. 
 

As of right now the Angels are going to try to win next season, so they’re going to want to keep Ohtani whether or not he signs an extension. (Maybe that changes if Trout suffers some kind of setback over the next two months.)

They have tried adding talent for seven seasons and it has not worked. Halos have so many needs going into off season. Top free agents not coming here. Trea Turner among other top SS want to play on a winner. Angels do not need another 250 mill contract. I like Angels young pitching to build around. My concern with Ohtani if he is going to test free agency trade him. It would be too hard to change this team into a playoff contender over the winter. 

[Swordsman78]

2 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Angels have shown last 7 seasons they cannot add talent to even have a winning season.

I think the talent is here, just need to get healthy.  Need a #1 starter and a SS to get to the playoffs.

Sandoval and Ohtani are good 2-3 pitchers.  Canning, Detmers, Lorenzen are potential #4 and #5 starter.

Teperia, Herget and Silseth are showing bullpen potential.  Even Loup has been better.

Rengifo and Fletcher are solid up the middle

Rendon will be the 3rd baseman when he returns

Ward was and All star 1st baseman last year.  Just needs to get back to form

Outfield with Trout, Walsh, Sierra (who is showing promise) and Adell.

Stassi can be a good catcher and the bullpen has improved.

With the exception of Trout and Rendon, this is a very young team and they are starting to show some grit and fight due to the efforts of the new skipper.

[Docwaukee]

32 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yep the Arte hate is just a convenient villain. Sure he’s the owner so ultimately it falls on him just like every owner of every business. But Perry echoed how to spend the money.  Arte didn’t tell him to go get Loup or Tepera or Wade, Velazquez or Lorenzen.  

I gotta chop this one up a bit.  

For pretty much the last decade at least - probably longer, there has been a fairly strong collection of people who have failed at their job of winning baseball games.  

Now, either they aren't very good at it or it's actually not their job to win games.  Or at least not their primary concern.  Which one of these are we meant to believe?  

Arte, Carpino, Kuhl, whoever.  SOMEONE is doing it wrong.   OR.  they collectively don't have the agenda we want them to.  So have all the GM's they've hired been morons?  Or is it that the expectation and directive of what they are tasked with is almost impossible relative to what's actually realistic.  

I'm more inclined to believe the latter.  And not because I'm looking to blame anyone in particular.  I hate the blame game.  What I do like is solving problems.  And the biggest issue is that for whatever period of time we want to choose, no one has been able to solve the problem.   They've been essentially trying to do the same thing.  What is the root cause and how do you fix it.  

And btw, it's too late.  For next year for sure.  Maybe even for several years after that.  The only way you can 'solve' the problem now is to get really aggressive in ways that you haven't been.  That's my opinion.  You haven't completely burned this franchise to the ground as of yet but you might have to be willing to in order to get this shit to work and create an actual legit window.  And once again, you'll need a whole lotta luck.  And a whole lotta money that you're not likely to get.  

[Angels 1961]

5 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

I think the talent is here, just need to get healthy.  Need a #1 starter and a SS to get to the playoffs.

Sandoval and Ohtani are good 2-3 pitchers.  Canning, Detmers, Lorenzen are potential #4 and #5 starter.

Teperia and Silseth are showing bullpen potential.  Even Loup has been better.

Rengifo and Fletcher are solid up the middle

Rendon will be the 3rd baseman when he returns

Ward was and All star 1st baseman last year.  Just needs to get back to form

Outfield with Trout, Walsh, Sierra (who is showing promise) and Adell.

Stassi can be a good catcher and the bullpen has improved.

With the exception of Trout and Rendon, this is a very young team and they are starting to show some grit and fight due to the efforts of the new skipper.

Canning hurt Lorenzen hurt and a free agent. I do like Nevin and hope he is back. 

[Angels 1961]

2 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I gotta chop this one up a bit.  

For pretty much the last decade at least - probably longer, there has been a fairly strong collection of people who have failed at their job of winning baseball games.  

Now, either they aren't very good at it or it's actually not their job to win games.  Or at least not their primary concern.  Which one of these are we meant to believe?  

Arte, Carpino, Kuhl, whoever.  SOMEONE is doing it wrong.   OR.  they collectively don't have the agenda we want them to.  So have all the GM's they've hired been morons?  Or is it that the expectation and directive of what they are tasked with is almost impossible relative to what's actually realistic.  

I'm more inclined to believe the latter.  And not because I'm looking to blame anyone in particular.  I hate the blame game.  What I do like is solving problems.  And the biggest issue is that for whatever period of time we want to choose, no one has been able to solve the problem.   They've been essentially trying to do the same thing.  What is the root cause and how do you fix it.  

And btw, it's too late.  For next year for sure.  Maybe even for several years after that.  The only way you can 'solve' the problem now is to get really aggressive in ways that you haven't been.  That's my opinion.  You haven't completely burned this franchise to the ground as of yet but you might have to be willing to in order to get this shit to work and create an actual legit window.  And once again, you'll need a whole lotta luck.  

I agree

[AngelsLakersFan]

23 hours ago, tomsred said:

I had to laugh at this.  Of course some rival exec would say something like this, probably one who wants Ohtani really bad.  Also interesting that he didn't identify himself as the rival exec who said this, like maybe....Dodgers?   I think the move to not trade him at this deadline was wise, yes the Angels might have gotten a little more for him now, but I don't believe the difference is that great if they do it in the offseason.  Plus in the coming off season they will know a great deal more of what is available to them, and also what are the most critical spots to fill, plus how soon.  A lot of things can be answered between now and the end of this season, we have 57 games to have a hard look at what is with us now.  In one sense there is no pressure to win, but in another there is a lot of pressure on the players we have to perform at their best just to have a shot at next year on this team.  Let's also see if Trout comes back and is effective this year.  The remainder of this season is really a critical time in my opinion.  Learn more, and prioritize where your weaknesses need to be retooled with new players, where you want to bet on a rebound on someone currently here, and please make an early decision in the offseason on what to do with the manager and coaching staff plus anyone else in the front office for that matter.  

 

 

23 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

Couldn’t agree with this more, except logically they can get better pieces in the off-season than now. All the rebuild fantasy people want them to trade Ohtani for 5 prospects as though we are the Nationals. We aren’t. In the off-season, a team will give up an MLB player because they have time on replace them. At the deadline it’s all prospects. If Ohtani rejects their extension and says he is probably leaving, fine! Trade him! 

I agree we need to see a lot from our guys the rest of this year. I hate that the last two seasons, we’ve had a two month tryout. But that’s the way it is. At least our minors are better this year and we can possibly use it to trade a bit. 

I love the delusion guys, really.

Hopefully at some point I can get a hit of that hopium so that I can get back to watching these games thinking how awesome the team will be when Trout and Rendon are healthy, and Fletcher is a 3 war player again, and Walsh remembers how to play baseball and Adell turns into a baseball player and Ward goes back to being first month of the season Ward and the bullpen guys all start pitching good... 

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

22 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

My 2 cents: It’s easy to sit here and say “the Angels will win with the prospects they get for Ohtani” but do you really think that’s a certainty? Prospects are just prospects. 
 

The fact is the Angels are in a spot where it’s hard to win with Ohtani and it’s hard to win without Ohtani and a bunch of prospects in his place. 
 

If you have a choice of two uncertain paths, which one would you pick?

You're right Jeff, they are gona fuck it up which ever route they take. I suppose in that sense focusing on retaining Ohtani is the way to go as he's the only reason to tune in for the foreseeable future.

[AngelsLakersFan]

12 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

This definitely wasn’t a critique, just something I’ve noticed. And that makes sense. In that light, much of the speculation could be exaggerated. It sure does rile up fans though…

To Jeff’s point, this is why I hope they re-sign him. Rebuilding in baseball games 4-5 years and is no guarantee. Pirates? Marlins? Royals? Their prospects are arriving but their records aren’t improving. Give me years of Trout and Ohtani and trying over and over to fill out the lineup with the right pieces. Not for entertainment—because having an Ace and 2-3 in your lineup set is a plus. It doesn’t mean we are out of money to spend, it means we have to spend wisely and also develop O’Hoppe, Sonny D, Neto, Rengifo, Jackson, Placencia, Adell, Moniak, Blakely. 

This is pretty much exactly what the organizational strategy has been for about 15 years now.

[Swordsman78]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:46 AM, ten ocho recon scout said:

It's also a factor whether Legend that leaves goes off and plays for winning teams. If Babe Ruth was sold to the 1920s Angels, for example, he wouldn't be remembered like he is today. But he went off to a team that dominated, so the legend was born.

Then there's the other side of the argument...

... anyone who would laugh at the Angels for trading Ohtani would be the same people to laugh at the Angels for having Ohtani, and not winning.

We've had Trout and Ohtani for a few years now and haven't won. (In typical Angel luck I don't think either has played healthy the same year as the other). But nobody is "not laughing" at us right now with both.

WHAT?????   "Babe Ruth went on to a "team that dominated" and THAT is why his legend was born?

They don't call Yankee Stadium "The house that the team that dominated built".

Ruth was hitting more home runs than other teams in total.  

About ready to nominate this post for an end of year award, and not a good one.

[Swordsman78]

On 8/5/2022 at 1:16 AM, Lou said:

 

True, but that was over 15 years. The offer was less than $30M per year.

As if he thinks hes going to get an extension in 10 years for more $. 

$$400 million would be difficult for even Mike Tyson to blow through.

Evidently No one wants to play in a swamp like DC regardless of the cash.  NY is a hell hole as well

Guys like Ohtani and Trout will take a reasonable offer to play in Anaheim though.

[Swordsman78]

On 8/4/2022 at 2:40 PM, Angelsjunky said:

I think their best option is to first improve the team this offseason, then have a talk with him in January or February, and offer a really nice contract - like 8/$320M, with an opt out after two or three years. That is hard money to refuse when you don't have a guaranteed contract (I think he'll get arbitration next year, so what, $15M?) - and he can always opt out if the Angels haven't turned things around.

If he says, "Let's wait and see how the season goes," you have one of two choices: trade him (unlikely) or play out the season and hope for the best, which is likely what would happen. They could still trade him in July, although obviously get a much lesser package. If they don't trade him, well, at least they get a compensatory pick after he refuses a QO.

So that's the worst case scenario: We get one more year of Shohei and compensation draft pick, and of course aren't saddled with another huge contract. I mean, as much as I want Shohei to stay, I'm not a big fan of huge contracts, and it isn't like he's without risk. The Angels would be one bad arm tweak away from play a good DH $40M a year for the next 8+ years.

 

My bet is the Ohtani wants to sign with the Angels, but he doesn't want to lose honor for taking an insulting offer.

Angles will need to pay at least Trout and Rendon $$ + so Ohtani can save face.  Then he will sign.

Unless Boras is Ohtani's agent, I think it can be worked out.

[Swordsman78]

On 8/5/2022 at 11:07 AM, TroutField said:

Same, I’m done with this team the way it’s operating.

I’m still a fan and always will be but if I have a choice to bring my kids to a Padres game or an Angels game, I’m making the drive down to San Diego to see an exciting team. This isn’t a product worth spending time or money on. We are the laughing stock of baseball. 

Bandwagon Bob

[Swordsman78]

23 hours ago, Second Base said:

I'll give you that. But I don't see anything as of right now that suggests to me the Angels can win next year, even with aggressive moves in FA. But if they do win next year, it'll put them in better position for sure. 

 

Comments like this are why you are SecondBase and not SS.

[Dtwncbad]

9 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

 

My bet is the Ohtani wants to sign with the Angels, but he doesn't want to lose honor for taking an insulting offer.

Angles will need to pay at least Trout and Rendon $$ + so Ohtani can save face.  Then he will sign.

Unless Boras is Ohtani's agent, I think it can be worked out.

“Lose honor” and “save face”?

You know there is an edit button if you want work the word “rice” in there.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

“Lose honor” and “save face”?

You know there is an edit button if you want work the word “rice” in there.

Angels pay big money to Ohtani then make him swing chop stick to save!!

[Swordsman78]

On 8/4/2022 at 3:22 PM, ten ocho recon scout said:

First, to your last point. I totally agree. Nobody wants to admit it, but Ohtani comes with some pretty big risks. Also what nobody wants to admit (because it's sacrelig here) is that Trouts deal is starting to look scary. The past 2 years haven't been good, and he still has 8 to go... and he's only going to get older.

Rendon is already a bad contract. No way to ignore it. He's played less than a full season with us so far in 3 seasons combined, and in that time his OPS+ is 115. He's not going to get better with age. And he still has 4 more years... where he actually costs more than Trout. And the two combined will cost roughly 80 a year...

If we assume Ohtani will cost 35-40 a year.... we're looking at close to 110-120 a year... on 2 aging players (Trout I'll assume still has some great left in him, but the hour glass is still running), and a 3rd player who comes with risk.

Even if Moreno ups the payroll to 250, that still leaves 130 mill or so to fill out 22 other players. 

Which we could do if we had some bona-fide talent coming up... but do we?

As much as I would love Ohtani to be locked up, at this point, I don't any other way to actually win without trading him. And that sucks.

But for the "babe ruth" talk. The Sox were always "cursed" for trading him. But it looks like (from google) the Red Sox sucked in the 20s anyway... would they have been good WITH Ruth? And would Ruth have ever become as good as he became if he stayed on that bad team?... I have no idea. I wasn't born for a few more decades. 

We always talk about never getting value back for trading stars, and how trades like MCab didn't work out at all. But we can say the same with draft picks

IF the Angels can get 5 solid players and 6 future draft picks for Ohtani (like the 1989 Cowboys got for Hershell Walker), then I would say go ahead and make the trade.    This would go along way toward a quick rebuild without banking excessive salary on one guy.

[Dtwncbad]

49 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

 

I love the delusion guys, really.

Hopefully at some point I can get a hit of that hopium so that I can get back to watching these games thinking how awesome the team will be when Trout and Rendon are healthy, and Fletcher is a 3 war player again, and Walsh remembers how to play baseball and Adell turns into a baseball player and Ward goes back to being first month of the season Ward and the bullpen guys all start pitching good... 

 

I think you might be missing part of the point.  It isn’t that people are predicting all those successes.  I think It is more that that it is the best thing to hope for.

If you have to bet on a 15-1 horse or a 10-1 horse, nobody is saying betting in the 10-1 horse feels great.

[Swordsman78]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

“Lose honor” and “save face”?

You know there is an edit button if you want work the word “rice” in there.

How much rice can a man possibly eat?

$400 mil would enable one to purchase alot of rice.

San Francisco the rice a roni treat.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

IF the Angels can get 5 solid players and 6 future draft picks for Ohtani (like the 1989 Cowboys got for Hershell Walker), then I would say go ahead and make the trade.    This would go along way toward a quick rebuild without banking excessive salary on one guy.

Maybe hold out for 9 top 100 prospects, 10 future first round picks, $50m cash, a couple of hammocks, and a lifetime membership to Costco?

I mean, they are so dumb for not doing this.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I think you might be missing part of the point.  It isn’t that people are predicting all those successes.  I think It is more that that it is the best thing to hope for.

If you have to bet on a 15-1 horse or a 10-1 horse, nobody is saying betting in the 10-1 horse feels great.

Sure, that's what we are hoping for, and we know it's not likely. I still hope for it every game I watch. This is what it's like being a fan of one of worst teams in professional sports... all you have is hope, and I won't take that away from you.

[Second Base]

34 minutes ago, Swordsman78 said:

Comments like this are why you are SecondBase and not SS.

That and a fondness for boobs. 

[tdawg87]

6 minutes ago, Second Base said:

That and a fondness for boobs. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

They have tried adding talent for seven seasons and it has not worked. Halos have so many needs going into off season.

If you have such doubts about the Angels’ ability to identify useful players among the major leaguers who are available to help now, why would you think they’d do better at picking from another team’s minor league players?

[Jeff Fletcher]

To be clear, I am not saying the Angels were “right” to keep Ohtani or that they are “right” to try to win in 2023.

I think they’re kind of screwed either way. And I think they know that.

And given that, I understand why they’re picking this avenue. 
 

That’s all. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Jeff Fletcher